Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 290993 times)

cujet

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I can't access any of the pictures or anything at all at Warrior paintball. Warrior paintball simply times out. That's sad, because I'd love to see the pics of the crankshaft.
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EdDee

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Hi Chris,

Just checked everything this side and I can access the server via my intranet... anybody else having problems getting into the pics?

Could be a DNS problem... have had some iffy access this side updating my dyndns account....

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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TxBlacksmith

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Cant access the picks here in Texas...  at home or work...  getting time out... ???

cujet

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Is there any chance you can move a few pics to imgur or some other free host?
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EdDee

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Hi Chris,

There is always a chance, but I am lazy! ... OK so I admit it ....Lol... Try and get into http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private and come back to me with an error message if you get one....

Regds
Ed

PS.. it looks like my dyndns updater on my router was choosing the wrong account to use for the DNS resolution... looks like its working now... give it a try Chris, I think I have got it right now... cheers... Ed...
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 08:42:43 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Guys.....

As mentioned before.... The devil finds work for idle hands(and minds)..... Just had a bright(maybe) idea....

Most, or a large part of the problems that are speed/governor related, come down to worn linkages or sloppy linkages as from new... What about this:

Install a soft tension spring on the "closing" direction side of the IP - it will hold all linkages under tension, thus eliminating slop and improving governing, as well as acting as a fail safe of sorts should one of the governor pins fail ... As soon as the link train breaks, the rack closes.... To see if the spring is strong enough, disconnect the lowest link on the governor arm and ensure that the spring is powerful enough to pull the IP closed from full open position....

Hmm.... gonna try mock it up and test!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

cujet

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I finally got into the pics. That crank needs some work. Ugh.
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EdDee

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Hi Chris,

Work, no, re-purposing, yes....

Could make quite a cute lamp-stand.....

Got the replacement today, a few mins ago in fact..... I think I need to spend some quality time with my engine!!

The new crank arrived sans main bearings but with timing gear and big end bushes, but they did throw in a "sorry sir" pack of rings....  :)

Hopefully I will get a chance to pop it all together over the next day or two, might just try and do the bottom end today and machine up the piston for the additional rings tomorrow or so... Lets see how it pans out....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey guys...

What an interesting day it has been... Not in a totally pleasant way either...

I unpacked the crank at around midday, at quick glances, it appeared a tad "rough" ... nothing like the finish on the original, not that that was very good to start with....

After about 2 hours of filing and de-nubbing, this is what it looks like, http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Replacement Crank 20151223 .... Not great, but usable.... I wish I had a larger lathe to smooth down those terrible cuts that were made... overall, everything was in basic spec, but the finish was atrocious... The big end journal was coarsely ground, way too rough for my liking, but slightly over size thank goodness... after a few hours with 1000 grit water paper and a buffing/polishing wheel, it is now almost ready for installation... A point to note is that whilst assembling and testing clearances, I kept on picking up swarf in the bearing shells, no matter how clean I made them. I eventually tracked the problem's cause... the lube hole was badly cut, with swarf chip welded to the inside of the passages... I reamed the exit hole with a sharp 7mm drill and then discovered that the entrance hole, while starting at 10mm, narrowed down to a 5mm pilot hole after about 15mm... this would have effectively negated the ring feeders action as the oil would have to flow "uphill" against centrifugal force, to exit into the big end bushing.... this might be something to check on if you have a similar oil feed system...

I have 2 x .1mm shims on one side of the conrod bearing half, and one .1mm shim on the other... with one shim in each side, when torqued to spec, the bearing locks solid in all positions... my thinking is that putting in one shim extra on one side, gives me half of .1 clearance overall, ie, .05 mm final bearing clearance... this equates to less than 3 thou, so it should be OK... What concerns me a tad, is that there is a TINY bit of ovality in both the journal and big end... at 2 points of rotation, there is a slight bind, easy to overcome with mild hand force, but a  bind nevertheless... I will take alook at it tomorrow if I have the inclination, but it its so slight that I might just leave it and run it as is.... your thoughts gentlemen?

I also noted that the removal of the old main bearings was, shall I say, somewhat tedious.... I estimate about a .10 -.15mm interference fit, judging by the effort to get them off... I definitely am going to check and mic the seat areas before I refit them to the new crank....(yes, I did keep the inner/outer bearings as matched pairs and have marked them as such to keep them so) .... That amount of interference is totally over the top for this or any application like this.....

Next step is to install the crank and set up the end float, once the mains are in place, I will be looking at around 3 thou cold float, it should be adequate and not too excessive... Previous float was....duh... none.... after 1600 hrs of runtime, it was still tight to turn, almost too tight to turn by hand without conrod  or flywheels on... So much so, that when I stripped the trumpets off, I checked them for cracks.... I see some creative scissor work in my immediate future, making additional spacers from paper....

I eventually got the sh!ts with trying to find Torque and Clearance settings in the piles of notes I have dotted around the workshops... I put together this "cheat sheet" for my own reference, help yourself if you want a copy, it is a "concentration" of all my scraps of notes that I have on this engine and a couple of others, use at your own risk etc etc etc.... If you spot something that I have cocked up or left out, don't hesitate to shout... you can find it here http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Cheat Sheet

Anyways, again I ramble on, I hope u guys are getting some entertaining reading if nothing else from my mutterings and ramblings...

Keep it spinning..

Regds
Ed

PS... I also took some weight measurements of the crank, remember, this is a 12hp idi cbw engine, so if yours ain't the same, well, nuff  said...

Crank with cbw and conrod installed - rotary mass, 700g, under balanced
Oscillating masses:
Gudgeon pin and circlips - 500g
Piston, aluminium, - 1645g
Rings - 210g
Small end mass - 1000g
Top ring(additional to be installed) - 25g

So my guess at counterweights to be added would be:700+(500+1645+210+1000+25)/2= 700+3380/2=2390g at crank throw radius to give 50% balance throughout the rev range... cmon Chris, does it look about right to you from a calculation POV?(also, my flywheels have no built in balance weights...)

PPS - Cheat sheet has been updated - Copy available here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Cheat Sheet
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 11:04:47 AM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Hey Guys,

Another brief update, or rather should I say "rambling" from my side...

The bottom end of the beast is basically together, I mic'd and compared the two crank bearing seating widths before I assembled and installed bearings on the new crank... The new crank was about .1 narrower than the old....

So there I go, install and torque to 1/4 setting the bearing carriers... lo and behold, no free play whatsoever...

Remove carrier, install 4xpaper spacers, Retorque to 1/4... Yippeeeee.... End float is here!! Now sitting with .3mm end float.... All is good, time to do some final settings... (A hint: Cut varying thickness spacers out of different coloured paper... In this case it was 2xYellow of .2mm each, 1xGreen of .18mm, 1xWhite of .08mm, this saves measuring and time when you remove them... Obviously make a brief note of the thickness per colour!!)

Torqued to final setting, 60 Ft.Lbs, there was little to no change in the end float.... Good! (Indicates no sand or dirt in the packing)

Removed the non-ip side housing, as the IP side was spaced perfectly for the cam gears, and removed the Green(.18) and the white(.08) spacers, leaving the end float after final torque at around .03mm to 04mm depending on how hard you tug and push on the crankshaft.... (Another hint: Do the end float setting with the bearings dry and unlubricated - do not hammer or bump on the crankshaft at all without any form of lubrication .... It makes the measurement much easier... As soon as you are done and torqued up, give them a good flush with SAE30 and spin the crank SLOWLY to get it into the bearings proper... Immediately, you will feel the end float diminish by what seems to be a substantial amount as the oil cushions the surfaces...)

After that, valve timing is a piece o' pee...  get the cam to hold the followers "on the rock" ... set crank to TDC... Slip in the timing gear and spindle... dead easy...(Hint: Look at the cam followers from the inside, it is dead easy to judge level by eye as one is ascending and the other is decending - as they level out, this is the equal that you are looking for... Set the crank to TDC just by looking into the top of the cylinder bore and getting it centered - If you are one tooth out in either direction it shows up very clearly and is easy to spot....)

I noticed that our Indian friends have some interesting ideas where it comes to final position of the cam gear on the crankshaft - there is about 1/4 to 1/8th of a tooth difference between the original and the new crank... on these engines though, this fortunately does not make a big difference, if any difference at all to the running and performance that I have noted so far... Obviously, for these babies, Injector timing is very important and the different gear position on the crank will alter this by a few degrees, so that will have to be set up anyway!

Next step... Rings, grooves, pistons, cylinders and ridge cutting.... It feels like Christmas... This is so much fun!!

Oh wait, it is Christmas.... Happy Christmas Everybody!!

Keep the bells chiming... (...to a steady Lister beat..... dress it up with decks of holly... Tra la la, la la, la, la!)

Lacking a suitable position and mounting point on the top of my green Lister, cast iron, Xmas tree, I have installed a fairy on the topmost portion of the genset... It involved the insertion of a radiator cap in a most impolite area... Poor fairy....  ::)

But seriously though guys... I really hope you all have a wonderful Xmas and a restful, peaceful and joyous time!

Happy Christmas,
Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 04:26:39 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

veggie

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EdDee

It's been very interesting following your "experiments". Thanks for posting.
Looking forward to the future updates.
Happy Christmas !

veggie
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
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EdDee

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Hey Veggie,

Hope u had as good a one as I did!

Mission accomplished! Two rings fitted to a widened top groove, two unsprung oil rings fitter in the oil grooves, ridge has been scraped, cylinder honed, cylinder with piston and rod lowered onto the bottom end, big end torqued and fitted.... I am knackered! ....

I did make an additional little change though... I have now fitted what can best be described as "The Big Dipper" ... it is a variation on the hollow dipper you find n some engines, a bit of poetic licence has been involved... I enlarged the thread in the conrod end cap and freehand turned a larger ball ended splasher... this was then cored out to 4.5 mm down its length and an intersecting funnel was mad at 90 degrees on the end by using a center drill... this will pick up oil pretty much like a standard hollow dipper, but hopefully quite a bit more... pics are to view here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Big Dipper/

The threaded end has been smooth turned to fit the locating hole on the big end bearing, just to keep things neat and in line!

Well, that's about all I have to log for today, tomorrow is bump clearance and cylinder head day, I might even get a chance to make some counterweights for the 50-50 balancing of the wobbly and bouncy bits.....

Keep it boxing(day)...

Regds,
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

veggie

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Mission accomplished! Two rings fitted to a widened top groove, two unsprung oil rings fitter in the oil grooves, ridge has been scraped, cylinder honed, cylinder with piston and rod lowered onto the bottom end, big end torqued and fitted.... I am knackered! ....


So....you put 2 compression rings into the upper ring groove ?
Interesting.
So the piston now has 5 rings instead of 4?
Any concern about the top ring getting adequate lubrication ?

veggie


- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

EdDee

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Hi Veggie,

Yep, what I did was to widen the top groove - it was worn anyway... I opened it out to double the thickness of the top ring and installed a new ring above the old ring... the gaps are staggered 180 degrees... the old ring was worn, but not unusable, just the gap was a tad large... there was little blow by when I stripped it hence the reuse of the top ring... Running straight dino might make the lubrication a bit scarce, but, as you know, I am running a high level of WMO so I am hoping that this added lubricity will make up for it.. Two top rings about 2.5 thick, 2 wide compression rings, of about 3 and a bit thick in the next 2 grooves, then 2 unsprung oil rings in the next two grooves to give a total of 6 rings instead of what my motor had, 5.... Going this route, I can give the piston another lease on life by, if needed in the future, removing the top 2 singular set and replacing them with a single wide compression ring should the groove wear badly again(There are wide compression rings I can get locally that are more than double the thickness of the top thin compression ring)....

I am hoping that the double top ring will hold back the nasties a bit better and slow down the groove wear a bit... time will tell.... ( if it works of course)...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 11:20:24 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

quinnbrian

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Nice post, great work!!. The water injection helps a lot! Help with the removal of carbon build up and increase cylinder pressure (steam pressure) Have you tried a little acetone in your WMO? I've been looking at waste plastic to oil converting ...also looks very interested. Any thoughts?
Cheers
Brian