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Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 237804 times)

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2015, 05:47:03 PM »
Hey Tom,

Agreed re the Rockwell stuff, same goes for Siemens... Ladder programming is not so bad, its just when you get into the heavier stuff for temp control and heating that the functions get a bit hairy.. What were those functions called again? To prevent overshoot...

Strange enough, on almost all PLCs I have salvaged or tried to in the past, the one cheapest component in the system was always the one that caused the most damage... the damn backup battery... board mounted... starts leaking due to age, good bye PLC....

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2015, 06:10:26 PM »
Hi Guys,

Seeing as its a listeroid forum, I better at least post something Listeroid for today...Lol...

This arvie I shut the beast down and stuck a 225mm single sheave pulley on the gen head outboard of the 300mm double pulley and ran it up... I was able to generate a max load of about 1.8 to 2 kW constant, but very pulsey power. The lister pulse was defs present, but it did sound oh so awesome! There was the start of black smoke at this load, not very bad, but enough to concern me. I stopped the test.

I then whipped off the pulley and stuck on a 250mm pulley and ran it up again. I was able to pull around 2.2 to 2.4kW constant, with less pulsing, less smoke, and also a most enjoyable rythm,.... way more practical for my needs!

All was going brilliantly.... the fridges were running fine, the water pumps were working beautifully, all electro mechanical devices were doing just as they should..... but... my UPS`s on my electronic household circuits were screaming blue murder and waving white flags... The APC units were picking up the pulsing and reverting to battery because of the instability... Has anybody else had this happen?

I have set them to low mains sensitivity to no avail... As soon as they see low rev lister power coming, they go battery... if anybody has a firmware hack for them, please drop me a message! They are the APC 2200 and 3300 units, there must be something that can be done to get them more frequency tolerant..

Changing from hi to lo rev mode is dead simple...  I shut down, slip a belt off onto the small pulley, take up the slack on a jockey pulley that is fixed in place, unwind the governor and start her up... dead easy!

Note to self.... don't forget to unwind the governor..... I dunno if the gen head can handle a 30% over speed.... not keen to find out!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2015, 10:21:22 PM »
As a side note, I had a look at "event timing" as opposed to "clearance timing" on the valves today, the inlet opening event is fine(about 7BTDC), but the exhaust closing event looks to be out...(factory spec is 15 to 55 after TDC if I remember correctly, this is obviously a misprint... )..  Setting the exhaust tappet clearance to event seems to be a no go at the moment... I have reverted back to clearance setting on the exhaust... again, even this is a guess because all the info I have only goes up to the 10/1, nothing there for the 12/1...it is spec at 8 thou cold on in and exhaust... 38ac, if u r out there, gimme some comments if u can.... I read your insights on the WOK BTW, very informative and well set out... nice one!

Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

dax021

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2015, 08:21:42 PM »
Has this thread died - what's happening Ed?

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2015, 08:38:40 PM »
Hey Dax,

Nope not quite dead yet.... Been a bit hectic, will play catchup as soon as I get a chance....

Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2015, 10:20:57 PM »
Hey guys,

Here are the latest happenings from darkest Africa.... Well its night time now, the roid is put to bed, I guess that makes it "darkest"....

Yesterday I eventually managed to get the CS plug out... Foolishly, when I commissioned this engine, I only gave the CS plug a light twist with a spanner to ensure it was tight... well, it was... tight up against some prime Indian debris... Amazingly, the green gunk they painted this creature with, managed to put up a bit of a seal, so not much leak was noticed during the early running from the CS plug... when the green stuff became a bit dodgy from the heat, a substantial amount of carbon had worked its way into the threads, successfully locking the plug in place..

Removal was a prize pain in the ass.... nothing that a spanner with 3ft of pipe couldn't sort out though... The reason for the removal, was to see the deposits in the IDI chamber... There wasn't much to be seen, way less than 1cc of total deposit was removed... most of it from the concave surface of the plug... there was relatively little to be seen in the chamber itself... it is almost as if the plug was a cooler point causing the deposits to adhere more easily to it perhaps...? I don't know... If you want to see pics of the plug and chamber inner, let me know and I will post a link to them...

I suspect, no, I am certain, that when I replaced the head gasket with my home brew version, I have gone down in compression... Hindsight is 20/20... Starting is more of a chore now than before... it takes a fair bit of turning over on the starter motor to get her firing... once running, a shutdown and restart by hand is easy... I am currently still running pretty much pure WMO(if there is such a thing) and only now and then switching to dino for short periods...(WMO is a far nicer running fuel for me, less knock and more power...) I have got thinner gaskets cut, I just need a bit of time to fit one... I am currently running on a gasket that is 1.2mm thick, aluminium. I want to try a .7mm gasket to see the difference it makes... Micrometer readings of the lip seal area of the original gasket indicate that it was squashed to about 1.05mm thick at cylinder wall... the 1.2mm I have in place now has definitely dropped the CR a bit, if my basic calcs are right, it would have dropped it by around 1 point if the motor was around the 17 to 1 when original... I did the calcs, just don't have them close by at the mo...

With this drop in CR, there is a definite dip in the power output and an increase in smoke while running under load.... A change to a thinner gasket will confirm it I reckon.... It seems as if WMO in particular, needs a bit higher CR than dino for reasonable running... pardon me if I have stated the obvious....Lol...

As to the economy impact of the lower CR... well ... difficult to say at this stage, but the influence seems minimal...

Another day in listerland draws to a close.... let's see what tomorrow brings!

Regds
Ed

PS... these damn UPS's are still pissing me around..... they are way too proud to run on a lister at 550 to 600 rpm.... This problem looks complex... pass me the bigger hammer please......
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 10:26:45 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Tom

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2015, 11:04:09 PM »
To change CR you can add or remove gaskets between the cylinder base and crankcase. Don't know what the bump clearance for that beast is, but I'd suggest keeping it within the bottom range of the spec. To measure bump clearance place a couple of bits soft lead shot or solder on the piston above the wrist pin, torque head and rotate past TDC. Remove head and measure clearance. On my 6/1 it's set for .045"
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2015, 10:04:06 AM »
Hi Tom

Noted! ..... But.....

There is not too much in the way of gaskets at the bottom end of my beast that I see there, around 1/2mm or so tops - I am trying to avoid lifting the cylinder and breaking any gasketing on the lower end at the moment - keeping the bottom setup as close to original for testing as I can. A further reason for playing top and not bottom cylinder games is that if I remove from the bottom, my top ring will fall above the bore ridge that is formed from running which is quite substantial at this stage - as soon as this happens, the top ring is probably gonna get hammered, so the right thing to do would be to remove the cylinder, scrape and hone the ridge, then re-install... I have thinner head gaskets so that would be the easier path for me until i tear it down to do rings and liner.... Your thoughts?

Squish measurement is not difficult to do - when I took a quick look at the piston crown/liner top step dims at TDC - there was plenty of clearance - way more than a mm by rough guess - it is spec'd around 80 to 100thou as standard - so I left it alone and concentrated on the busted head gasket to get it up and running asap... At that stage I only had the one gasket available to me so there was little choice to be had, knowing that I had enough plus surplus clearance available... performance could be addressed later..... When I pull the head to do the "real" gasket, I am going to cc it and get the true volume of the IDI chamber - that would allow me to work out the optimum head/squish clearances for this motor... I was thinking around a starting compression ratio of 17.5:1 and possibly working it up to a little higher, maybe in the region of 18.5:1 finishing, for the burning of the more "difficult" fuels at lower RPM (Valve/Crown clearances allowing it of course) - again, anybody please chime in if you see anything I might have missed, or if you have been there and can give me a bit of insight before I grab the spanners and the "big" hammer....(18.5 seems to be about the best max from what I have looked up so far, higher than that doesn't give the return/bottom end wear ratio rewards apparently....)

Keep it spinning!!

Anyways... Enough said for now, lets see how the day's run pans out... Sump gunk is still being used as fuel... About 4 to 500L left to process!!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Tom

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2015, 05:36:54 PM »
You've got a ridge already? It will be interesting to see how the crank holds up to the additional CR. What size is the crank journal on that beastie?
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2015, 03:33:03 PM »
Hi Tom,

I expected a ridge fairly soon and wasn't disappointed.... I am not cracking my fuel down to component, so additives are being burnt as part of the combustion process... Whilst the additives seem to do an excellent job with the lubricity at normal operating temps and pressures, I can only surmise that they are reversing their roles under combustion and being left as abrasive residues... An interesting possibility, difficult to substantiate with minimal hi-tech equipment to verify though.. To simply do a burn test on a small sample yields very little to no residue, bear in mind. that this beast has about 1700L of waste oil through it so far - I am sure that the small amount of contaminant/L has done a thorough job of wearing things down in the process of combustion. Another thing that cannot be forgotten is the metal particles of sub 7micron size that can and will be deposited during combustion on rings and the cylinder walls. 7 Micron because that is the finest that I have been filtering to so far. These metal particles would undoubtedly act as an abrasive and help the wear process... There is little to no evidence of pitting through corrosion that I can pick up, so I think that my method of drying the oil is satisfactory(my guess, which evidence seems to bear out, is that by making sure the oil is thoroughly de-watered, acids or alkali seems to be rendered somewhat if not entirely inert...)

I am considering putting on a temperature controller on the cooling system as a temporary measure... This will allow me to vary the engine temperature as well as keep an eye on it from a safety aspect as well. I noticed something quite interesting today when I started it up, although cold, there was little smoke and that struck me as strange. A diesel, as we know, likes to run in the hotter areas of the scale, so this is where I have been running it... It would be interesting to see if running a little cooler would make a difference to power/smoke output/deposit buildup from the fuel I am using... Just a thought.....

Fortunately this beast runs about 100ft away from my office door so monitoring it visually has become second nature...

As to the journal size, your guess is as good as mine, I presume it would be in the 2" range or thereabouts - I have ordered a big end bearing to keep as a spare, it just hasn't arrived yet.....

Keep it spinning....
Ed

PS: Here is a link to some pics of the inside of the IDI chamber and COV plug.... Some deposits are visible...

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/COV Plug and IDI Chamber/
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 03:45:11 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

vdubnut62

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2015, 09:22:33 PM »
I've seen worse. Have you checked the ph of the wmo before using as fuel?
Ron.
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."   Plato.

"Remember, every time a child is responsibly introduced to the best tools for the protection of freedoms, a liberal weeps for the safety of a criminal." Anonymous

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2015, 08:17:56 AM »
Hi Ron,

I must confess.... I haven't! There is no corrosion to the IP or metal lines/injector innards at all(After 3 months on the gunk) - This leads me to conclude that the PH of the goop is within tolerable limits.... Of course, corrosion can be accelerated by an elevated temperature, but this, I think, would also cause evidence on the injector tip insides... Maybe I am wrong, but this seems logical to me... Your thoughts?

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2015, 02:04:50 PM »
Hey all ye learned gents out there...!

Would one of ye be so kind as to check my calculations and let me know if I am going astray:

CC Readings:      2   cc Inlet         
                      2   cc Exhaust         
                         65   cc IDI Chamber         
                     69   Total Head Chamber Volume         
                  
Bore Measurement:      
              127.15   mm Bore Below Ridge   (Just for Interest)
      127.4   mm Bore at Crown above top ring   (Just for Interest)
       127   mm Bore above Crown    in squish area      
                127.15mm Approximate Bore below squish area in cylinder proper (Just for interest, used the bore as 127mm for calcs)
        2.26   N Squish (away from Injector Pump)         
       2.26   E Squish         
      2.47   W Squish(Hard Globular Carbon/Deposits) (Don't trust this measurement)
      2.26   S Squish      

            Squish seems large, but the motor is spec'd at between 80 to 100 Thou... ie 2 to 2.5mm.... so this seems in spec...   

      Assume W Squish reading is bad, Discarded            
      2.26   mm Ave Squish at 127mm Nominal Bore         
                  
      28.62812823   cc Squish Volume         
      8.867119363   cc Gasket Volume at .7mm thick at 127mm Bore         
                  
      106.3           cc Final Squish Volume Total         
      1769.623678   cc Cyl Swept Volume         
      17.64744759   Compression Ratio Actual         

And that about it!!

Tell me if I screwed up....

Much Appreciated....
Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 02:08:14 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Thob

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2015, 02:26:47 PM »
I thought squish was measured with the head gasket in place - that way it accounts for how much the gasket squeezes down when you torque the head bolts.  If that is the case, then you wouldn't add the gasket volume to the squish volume.  It also affects what the spec in the manual means...

Which way did you measure your squish?  With or without the head gasket?
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vdubnut62

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Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
« Reply #89 on: November 14, 2015, 05:45:19 PM »
Hi Ron,

I must confess.... I haven't! There is no corrosion to the IP or metal lines/injector innards at all(After 3 months on the gunk) - This leads me to conclude that the PH of the goop is within tolerable limits.... Of course, corrosion can be accelerated by an elevated temperature, but this, I think, would also cause evidence on the injector tip insides... Maybe I am wrong, but this seems logical to me... Your thoughts?

Regds
Ed

I'm afraid I'm empty-headed! I was just curious if you had checked. I have no idea if PH even makes a difference from my own experience.
 Mr. Bodell on the "other" forum seems to think it does.
Ron
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."   Plato.

"Remember, every time a child is responsibly introduced to the best tools for the protection of freedoms, a liberal weeps for the safety of a criminal." Anonymous