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Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 289689 times)

Hugh Conway

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2015, 08:29:36 PM »
@EdDee

Re your reluctance to add weight to the generator shaft.......the start-o-matic 2.5Kw gen head uses a heavily weighted drive pulley. I have never weighed mine, but read somewhere that the pulley/flywheel weighs in at around 80 pounds. Apparently Lister thought it was a good idea.
I like your idea of adding additional flywheels to the engine. The start-o-matic flywheels are quite a bit heavier than standard flywheels, again, never weighed mine, but they are far heavier than those on my listeroid. Should you find an additional set of wheels and installed them, we would all sure like to know how it worked out!
Nice work , BTW, shown on your photo link.
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
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Tom

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2015, 10:26:02 PM »
If you're going to go the extra flywheel route be sure to use ones from an engine with internal balance as an extra set of counter balance weights would not be good. I've read of people getting good results with truck brake drums and rims used as a flywheel. The SOM Lister gensets used 300 lb flywheels and 75-80 lb pulleys on the alternator.

Looks like you've got a grooved flywheel so you probably can get away with adding some weight on the alternator. Some have report belt slippage when doing this using serpentine belts.
Tom
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mike90045

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2015, 06:51:20 AM »
A point to ponder....
Energy stored in a flywheel is directly related to the mass of the flywheel... Double the mass and you double the stored energy... On my premises, I run numerous sensitive electronic bits and bobs... the smoother the ac, the longer they will last...fact. Like all lister type low speed gens, there is a mains flicker due to compression and ignition strokes, I was wondering if doubling up the flywheels has been tried before by any learned gents out there... My concern is whether the crank can handle the huge weight of double flywheels without detrimental bending moments taking their toll. A further benefit of the larger flywheel mass would be improved surge load capability and not to be forgotten, a better governing curve.... not to mention less wear and tear on the governor and IP with their associated linkages as well... and in all probability, possibly better bearing life in the big end department........

My thought is, the "weight" on the shaft is not the issue, but the stiffness of the added load, when starting, and the pump delivers a full squirt of fuel, and while the RPM is building up, the piston is hammering against 2x the inertia of the original flywheels.  Will something break ?

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2015, 12:03:36 PM »
@EdDee

Re your reluctance to add weight to the generator shaft.......the start-o-matic 2.5Kw gen head uses a heavily weighted drive pulley. I have never weighed mine, but read somewhere that the pulley/flywheel weighs in at around 80 pounds. Apparently Lister thought it was a good idea.
I like your idea of adding additional flywheels to the engine. The start-o-matic flywheels are quite a bit heavier than standard flywheels, again, never weighed mine, but they are far heavier than those on my listeroid. Should you find an additional set of wheels and installed them, we would all sure like to know how it worked out!
Nice work , BTW, shown on your photo link.
Cheers,
Hugh

Agreed Hugh.... But my few meager years of experience tell me that one should add weight to the item needing inertia/generating the pulses.... any other parts where you add weight will still be driven with the original pulsed power stroke - this will exercise the elastic limits of the couplings and if not allowed for lead to failure of those parts sooner than scheduled. I am loathe to upgrade my drive system to 10 to 15kw capability and still draw only 5....

If i find some wheels, I will give them a try and report back!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
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EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2015, 12:10:04 PM »
Quote
My thought is, the "weight" on the shaft is not the issue, but the stiffness of the added load, when starting, and the pump delivers a full squirt of fuel, and while the RPM is building up, the piston is hammering against 2x the inertia of the original flywheels.  Will something break ?

I think that would be unlikely, from a power stroke point of view anyway - the bearings/crank etc are capable of taking the full power without failing immediately - what does worry me would be the "droop" that may occur in the crankshaft by the huge mass of the additional flywheels further from the bearing centers(Imagine a weight lifter with a good size load on the bar...).... this would cause flexing on the power stroke and metal fatigue would set in sooner than later.... one snapped crank would be the outcome.... Lovely smooth power for..... oops!! 10 minutes!

Regds
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
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veggie

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2015, 12:11:15 PM »
Some (including Lister startomatics) add a heavy flywheel to the generator head also.

Veggie
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EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2015, 12:20:53 PM »
If you're going to go the extra flywheel route be sure to use ones from an engine with internal balance as an extra set of counter balance weights would not be good. I've read of people getting good results with truck brake drums and rims used as a flywheel. The SOM Lister gensets used 300 lb flywheels and 75-80 lb pulleys on the alternator.

Looks like you've got a grooved flywheel so you probably can get away with adding some weight on the alternator. Some have report belt slippage when doing this using serpentine belts.

Agreed about the counterweight wheels, and on that note - everybody is balancing dynamically at the rim, or close to it....  Has anybody actually measured the CG offset for a wheels/crank/rod setup.... It might be way more useful to balance these beasts at the point of the radius where the out of balance mass is concentrated... Just imagine, A 'Roid that doesn't jump around depending on the revs its running!! Smooth power (with the classic flicker of course...we wouldn't want to get rid of that, would we) from idle speed to full revs!!

The flywheels aren't grooved, I just have the 2 v's tracking on the rim.... works fine, and barring one serious thundershower that drenched everything for a few minutes, no slippage at all that I have noted.... All the way up to about 70A (at 220V) impulse loading while testing!!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2015, 12:29:13 PM »
Some (including Lister startomatics) add a heavy flywheel to the generator head also.

Veggie

Agreed Veggie,

Not my first choice though... prefer to moderate the pulses at source if at all possible.... At target it creates major strain on all the links... everything in the train needs to be beefed up considerably to cater for this.... If you are unlucky and happen to choose the right weight matching the right frequency matching the right stretch on the belt, spectacular things will happen in a very short time period.... Remember the bridge.... wasnt it called Galloping Gertie?

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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dieselgman

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2015, 01:10:09 PM »
Worst that will happen is likely to be belt stretching or chirping... nice elastic coupling there.

I agree that a pulse reduction at the source is better engineering, but how are you going to accomplish that feat? I would rather deal with some drive belt issues rather than stress fractures in the crankshaft.

It is my studied opinion that the British engineers were quite savvy and figured out how to do these things very well- within the technologies of their times.

dieselgman
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EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2015, 01:20:29 PM »
Worst that will happen is likely to be belt stretching or chirping... nice elastic coupling there.

I agree that a pulse reduction at the source is better engineering, but how are you going to accomplish that feat? I would rather deal with some drive belt issues rather than stress fractures in the crankshaft.

dieselgman

Hi GMan,

Chirping and stretched belts don't do it for me... Too much maintenance required to keep things turning... Currently, over 1200hrs on the original belts, not been adjusted since installation... That's a duty cycle i can enjoy.....(No grooved flywheels either, just running the inside of the vbelts on the periphery of the flywheel....)

The big trick is to try and determine the maximum point loading for the additional flywheels, once done.....etcetcetc... head hurting already..... Lets see if someone out there is better at the calcs than I am, or better still.... Has tried similar already....!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

dieselgman

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2015, 01:28:08 PM »
One of the very effective modern fixes for dealing with stretching belts is to add in a spring loaded idler pulley.

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2015, 01:49:51 PM »
Hi Gman,

I would not recommend that for an extra heavy load with a pulsed drive....the belt whip would be enormous and become difficult to manage.... unless of course you have super heavy springs on the tensioner...

Some time back I got hold of a 5000Psi 4 stage compressor - I wanted to set it up for charging some compressed air, PCP type rifles I own.... It came with a baseplate mounting, Ali double sheave pulley and all the right bits.... just a bit dodgy looking, but mechanically and pneumatically sound.... I popped a motor onto the base(it used those old rubber circular motor mounts... concentric to the front and back bearings...), belted it up and turned it on.... What a show!! the pulsing being transmitted back to the motor by the intermittent load of the compressor under low pressure when only the first stage is really working, caused something akin to the "Lister tango" but in a rotary way on the motor .... It tore up the rubber mounts pretty much within about 5 minutes of running..... No problem, they were probably perished, away i go and make up some Nylon inserts.... Well.... they lasted about 10 minutes.... No problem, put a 5x20mm steel strap around the motor, clamp it tight, bolt it to the chassis... no more torque problems.... or so I thought.... that lasted a couple of hours and then it broke too....

Something sparked in the back of my mind.... no wonder I got it for relatively bugger all.... the chap I got it from had the same problems....

Another bit of scratching around ensued and I found a Double sheave CI pulley with taper lock.... way more over engineered than the unit required (1/2HP motor)... I installed that on the compressor side to act like a bit of a flywheel and voila.... no more tango, rattle or rock and roll..... the flat bar mount is still in place... unused and loose.... found some older and even more perished motor mounts... they are still in place and not falling apart... All is sweet.... been running of and on for about 2 years now....

Goes to show!!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

veggie

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2015, 02:38:44 PM »


A heavy flywheel on the generator head was standard issue on Lister Start-O-Matics for many years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_exyuLSpk

Veggie
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2015, 02:59:42 PM »
Hi V,

Agreed, but that doesn't make it correct..... not to me anyway... Also, the flywheels in the SOM are grooved for the belts, they look like C section belts too, but I could be wrong...

Take a look at the whip in this video, bearing in mind there is minimum load being pulled....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR088eesEZg

I dont like that....

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

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Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2015, 10:14:01 AM »
Hi Guys,

Did some governor mods this weekend.... well, lets just say It was a pretty interesting experience!!

Problem:
The original spring I was using was giving me fair response and stability, but was a little "hitchy" in the upper power range causing quite a bit of lag under heavy load.

Started by making a stud to link the spring to on the governor arm, then moved the adjuster from the one side to the other - the adjuster is now on the "fixed" side of the governor spring. This allows for a much easier and reliable method of setting engine RPM while it is running.  While I was at it, I removed the stud that the spring was originally affixed to and made the mounting space for the spring virtually the full width of the crankcase, attaching it to the lower camshaft cover bolt - this allows for a whole range of springs to be tried(Which I of course did...)

My Findings:
A long spring which is fairly soft, but tensioned to the original tension of the spring that I was using - This caused major hunting with the linkage setup as it was. I changed the linkage lengths and got them to as good as I could with this "long and soft" spring - virtually perfect under low loading, but under high/full load the engine started to hunt.

Conclusion: A long spring is not always the best for every situation - I shortened it down in stages and found matters improved, but were not as good across the range as they were before.

Solution:
I then replaced it with the "Original" spring that I was using and found a marked and vast improvement to the governing - the problem with hunting disappeared(Long/Soft Spring) and having "tweaked" the linkages to as good as they could be with the long and soft spring, this in turn improved the setup on the original spring throughout the power range.

Conclusion: A longer/softer spring will show up linkage length problems and pronounce them to a degree that they become easier to sort out - it is easier to hear a 100RPM hunt than a 20RPM hunt(for me anyway). Be careful you don't overspeed when it starts hunting!!

Once you have got the linkages set up as best you can, then you can concentrate on the spring tension/pull ratio to get the revs to where you want them - Be prepared to change springs as it is not only the tension of the spring that matters, but the tension/stretch ratio that determines how the engine responds and gives it the required power "stability" across the range. If the spring is too soft/long - the governor weights fly out just a little to far and they seem to go "over-center" and it takes a major rev dip for them to drop back into their "linear" operating area.. If the spring is too short and hard, when you get the  ....... well.... I didn't get a chance to go into these waters..... With a Rainstorm pissing down and a sense of humour about to fail - I stopped testing when it was doing what I wanted it to!! (Always a good excuse-If you have fixed the problem, stop fixing it some more!!)

Note: The "Original" spring I was using was not the one that came with the engine - I had put a more suitable spring on to de-rate from 1000 to 750 RPM in the beginning of the "Lister Journey"

Hope this helps someone, somewhere, sometime.....

Regds
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!