Author Topic: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid  (Read 10452 times)

oldnslow

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When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« on: July 11, 2006, 10:32:25 PM »
Just wondering out loud: if a Listeroid were imported into Canada and combined with a generator head on a common frame, would they then be considered a "generator" for the purpose of sale? They could then be sold and exported as generators to the US, no?
Could any of our Canadian friends look into this?

Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

JohnF13

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 12:46:20 AM »
I already do that for some of my customers, but I hadn't thought about the U.S. importation implications. I think it will be a decision by the U.S. EPA folks.  We are still fine up here, no problems bringing the engines in whole for the forseeable future so it might be an option.
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

altopro

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 01:44:08 AM »
Hello,

Having the engine on a generator might confuse the regular custom officer but it still doesn't make the engine legal as per the new EPA laws.

Any engine or engine equipped machine sold in USA must now comply with the new EPA regulations for it's category. Being an engine only or a generator (or lawnmower, truck, ATV), it would still need to be certified. The regulation might be a little different depending on category (Stationary, off-road engines, on-road engines...) but every machine still needs to be certified except for military engines, model engines, and a few others not really applicable for a Lister.

The only way you could get away if you need to import an engine in the US from Canada are:
(For educational purpose ONLY)


1. Import a pre April 06 engine
New EPA law didn't not apply then and engine made before that date are exempted to comply to the new law.

2. Import the engines in pieces as spare parts (be careful here not to get the hole engine shipped at once)

Some US dealers are already importing parts from India selling them as kit. Selling a complete engine would be illegal unless you are an EPA certified manufacturer. Bringing over an Indian made engine from Canada looks easier than building the engine from a kit. You would be sure that all parts will be there and that the engines was factory tested.

3. Pick up the engine yourself in Canada, import it personally under informal entry (2000USD or less).

I have reports that some custom officers don't even know what EPA means!
There is no way that the guy at the border can know all regulations on all products.
Personal imports by US citizens are not the top priority of custom officers, they have enough job with other more important things.
They might check inside the box but they are not looking for the manufactured date, there are looking for you know what... (Undocumented workers, Terrorists, drugs, nuclear weapons, and anything else to justify their jobs...)

BTW, I'm sold out. I have no more pre-april06 Listers (Except for few Petteroids and my personal Listeroid). When I get my next batch, I don't see why I would not sell an engine to an American Tourist. We all know that these new EPA regulations on stationary engines should not include hobby engines 50HP or less.

Email me if you have any questions!

Good luck!


PAT
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 01:47:30 AM by altopro »
Pat Ricard
altopro.ca
Engines and tools!
I do ship to USA

t19

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 02:38:59 AM »
And who is to say you can't get a company in India to label thier machines as of 2000, the Y2K special... money talks
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

mobile_bob

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2006, 03:00:23 AM »
who is to say now big a model airplane is?

i have seen some very large model airplanes, some with very large engines?

i might just be ornery enough to mock up a full size plane, and order a lister and claim it is to fit my model plane,,, hehe

i know, i know...

it is a thought though, i bet there is a limit on model engine sizes in cc huh?
probably 50 cc limit.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2006, 01:02:25 PM »
who is to say now big a model airplane is?

i have seen some very large model airplanes, some with very large engines?

i might just be ornery enough to mock up a full size plane, and order a lister and claim it is to fit my model plane,,, hehe

i know, i know...

it is a thought though, i bet there is a limit on model engine sizes in cc huh?
probably 50 cc limit.

bob g


God, I've been saying this for months, if engines are restricted do like europeans and call them anything except engines, remove the fuel system and you have an old fashioned water cooled compressor.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

mobile_bob

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2006, 02:45:41 PM »
air compressor? hmmmmm?

now thats beautiful!

"yessir mister epa inspector, i ordered me a couple big ole air compressors to pressure test my neuclear reactor core"

i guess that probably wouldnt help, but seriously...

design a cheap checkvalve to take the place of the injector and then you would have an aircompressor easy enough even to demonstrate.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

twombo

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2006, 03:17:02 PM »
Uuuummm, Bob,  I believe that is Noo-Q-Ler!!

Yes,  air compressor.... that really is elegant!

Mike

Andre Blanchard

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2006, 04:11:50 PM »
I have a 6/1 and a 12/2 that when all is setup the generator head will be able to be driven from either engine but normal operation will be the 12/2 driving the gen head and a clutch to the 6/1 which will be setup as and air compressor.
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=10034&pos=-184

Barrowed a CAT 226 skid steer from a friend (cost me some fuel and I am going to wire up the lights on the trailer so he can stop sneaking around on back roads) and have been moving dirt around for the engine shed, last night rented an auger and drilled 22 4' deep post holes in just under 2 hours.  Was taking it easy trying to get the holes positioned as close as possible.  May yet get it closed up before snow.
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oldnslow

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2006, 04:46:05 PM »
Thanks guys,
Air compressor. Parts. Tourist pick up. Or just get an original. Great ideas. Just thought a post like this would put it in one place to give our "engineless" members some ideas.
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

SCOTT

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2006, 05:44:46 PM »
Hey Guys
There is a very simple solution to the EPA “problem”

Buy an engine from a dealer who understands the regs and offers EPA compliant engines.  I have some due in this week and will be ordering more soon.

BTW anyone who takes a 600lb “air compressor” or partial engine kit and turns it into a working diesel engine is considered by the EPA to be an engine manufacturer.   This person is now responsible for compliance with the regs.  Granted the likelihood of the EPA knocking on your door is very low, but why take the chance?  Does it make sense trying to "beat the system" when there is a legitimate way to get engines?  Take a look at the risk/ reward and make your decision. 
Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

Andre Blanchard

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2006, 06:49:29 PM »
Hey Guys
BTW anyone who takes a 600lb “air compressor” or partial engine kit and turns it into a working diesel engine is considered by the EPA to be an engine manufacturer.   This person is now responsible for compliance with the regs.  Granted the likelihood of the EPA knocking on your door is very low, but why take the chance?  Does it make sense trying to "beat the system" when there is a legitimate way to get engines?  Take a look at the risk/ reward and make your decision. 
Scott


Countless people build engines out of all kinds of things.

A little rebellion now and then is a good thing. :)
It reminds you who your friends are.
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hotater

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2006, 09:19:44 PM »
Its easier to ask forgiveness than permission sometimes...go get the engine and haul it home.  EPA?  What's that?, ask the Border guy.  He's the one that needs to show cause NOT to let you through the gate, it's not your place to beg your way back home!!

...but I WON'T go anywhere without a firearm or nine, so I just wave when I turn around and head back south.  I can't think of any reason to go TO Canada, just through it to get  to Alaska.   ;)
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

t19

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2006, 09:43:11 PM »
Its easier to ask forgiveness than permission sometimes...go get the engine and haul it home.  EPA?  What's that?, ask the Border guy.  He's the one that needs to show cause NOT to let you through the gate, it's not your place to beg your way back home!!

...but I WON'T go anywhere without a firearm or nine, so I just wave when I turn around and head back south.  I can't think of any reason to go TO Canada, just through it to get  to Alaska.   ;)

reason #1  GREAT BEER
reason #2  LISTER/LISTEROID ENGINES
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

oldnslow

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Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2006, 09:50:24 PM »
I think many here would get personal satisfaction out of converting a "600 lb compressor" into an engine. I doubt the EPA would consider a person an "engine manufacturer" for assembling one or two engines for personal use, nor would they have any way of knowing you assembled one because the sale of parts is not tracked. Fill out an import certificate or buy a certified engine and there will be a record of it somewhere....

If dealers can sell groups of parts (kits) that have the same or better quality and support as the engines they sold previously, they will continue to build leverage with the Indian exporters, eventually fiinding the best sources. This could be a better situation for future engine buyers because the best sources could be used to assemble the best engine. The end user then assumes the responsibility if the parts somehow become a running engine.

Mistakes are the cost of tuition.