Good wire source needed

[jtodd]

I've been looking for good wiring for my Listeroid project.  I have a bunch of 12vdc wiring requirements (gauges, control circuits, work lights, etc) that will need to be wired into the rig I'm building.  However, I'd like these wires to be biodiesel-proof, good-quality wires - not the $1.00 spool of NAPA wire that will get eaten the first time I spill some fuel on it, or that will turn brittle and flake after some sunlight exposure.  I'm going to be crimping/soldering all the ends and sealing with heatshrink, and all the connectors will be electrolytic-grease fitted for good measure.

I just need wiring for 12vdc or control wires - I have a different source for the mains that lead out of the generator, so this doesn't need to be particularly hefty wire.

I'd also be interested in anyone that has a good-quality source for wire ends (ring ends or spade lugs) that don't have junk-plastic sheaths and that are made to higher quality standards than that which is found in the local automotive store odds-and-ends bin.  Once I build this thing, I'd like it to run for 30 or 40 years without having to re-do the electrics.  I frequently find machines built in the 1940's whose mechanical portions of the electrical system beat anything made today, and I'm hoping to emulate some of the quality that I see in older equipment.

I have the 12vdc fuel heater from Fattywagons, which has great wiring on it that says that it's fuel-proof.  However, a few messages to the seller has resulted in no replies so I'll try the rest of the list and there is no manufacturer name on the wires.  I'm looking for model numbers or names of the wiring manufacturer, and even better would be a place to purchase it retail (Internet or in person...)

JT

[Jim Mc]

This is the best wire:

http://saturnsurplus.com/electrical/7366.htm


And these are some connectors for it.

http://saturnsurplus.com/electrical/male.htm

AKAIK, there is no better wire out there for this type of application.

Other stuff of interest here:

http://www.saturnsurplus.com/electrical/electrical.htm

[jtodd]

Jim -
  Thanks for the pointers.  However, I'm uncertain if that wiring is bio-diesel safe, and it's probably not going to be long enough for some of the runs I need to make (some of which may be 14 feet or more.)  I'd also like some choice in color (red, black, green, white) for different functions or sub-systems.  I love military surplus, but for larger projects dealing with wiring I think I'd want it on a spool with some specifications instead of just a segment without any further info...

JT

[Jim Mc]

Some research on your part would reveal the basic spec for this class of wire, used on military vehicles for many years.  It's good stuff, and if it ain't biodiesel-proof, I'd be shocked.

There are other sources for it, it can be bought in full spools as well. 

Colored wire is for pussies.

[mobile_bob]

i use THHN wire myself for all sorts of 12 vdc wiring
it is gasoline and oil resistant, pretty easy to work with, and economical
if you want good connection then go with the crimp/solder terminals, and shy away from spade
terminal where you can, screw terminals don't work loose.

run it all in conduit, rigid or flexible if possible will give you more protection and look cleaner.

also i alway use one guage higher than what is called for, added magin of safety.

btw, the THHN comes in differing temp ratings, so get what you need.
it comes in standed and solid core, i use the stranded and would suggest you do also.
the stranded is a bit heavier than automotive wire, so vibration might be an issue, so secure the wire well.
being a bit heavier it forms well and makes for neat installation, so the trade off in flexibility is ok by me.

and of course use rosin core solder not acid core, you probably already knew that.

the connectors can be bought from any larger electronics or appliance supply store as well.
in bulk i find they are very competitive with box store automotive stuff, and much higher quality.

bob g

[mobile_bob]

also if it was me, i would run a jacketed cable from the genhead to a remote mounted contol panel,
there is a cable/wire supplier here in seattle on harbor island that has all manner of multi cable, jacketed for
water, oil, fuel, acid you name it, good stuff and i find them to be very cost competitive.

perhaps remote mounting will eliminate the need for special wiring at the control box, and open up more options,
i sufficient length of 6/3 or 6/4 or whatever, jacketed to handle your biodiesel may cost a bit more up front, but the savings at the control box and further might outway the cost of the cable.

just a thought

i like your idea of building to last a lifetime, manufactures should do the same.

also from experience, keep away from unneccesary junctions, weather pack connectors and the like
these flying splices cause more grief down the road than the time they save having used them.

i do alot of class 8 truck rewires, and the amount of junction plugs with burnt or bad connections is maddening.
i like continuous runs from a switch to a load without interuption if at all possible.

also i do alot of repairs on control boxes, that are subjected to vibration, alot of contactors are destroyed because of
wires working their way loose because of not being secured instead of being allowed to just hang loose in the cabinet.
zip ties do a good job of secureing things, i may go overboard here but i don't get call backs.

hope this helps

bob g

[Doug]

Odds are ordinary TEW machine wire will be fine. Its oil resistant and most solvents like xylene only take off the lettering.
And its cheap....

Doug

[jtodd]

Bob -
  Thanks!  That's good data.  Despite your good advice, I'm probably going to go with some weather-pak connections, since I will need to remove/work on quite a bit of the electrical gear regularly (especially during "learning" phases) and un-soldering junctions is not on my list of fun things to do, especially with the extensive looming and wire mounting I'm considering.  It would be quite a chore to un-connect some of these wires without a logical "break" in the middle somewhere that is easily connected/un-connected.  I hope that my liberal use of electrolytic grease will reduce the burn-out rate.  The control panel will also have a 35-connector bulkhead (military surplus) that will allow me to pull out the whole relay/switch/instrument panel and bring it into the workshop without having to disconnect 20-odd wires.

  A quick search on eBay turns up a lot of "THHN".  I am sorry to say that I'm not familiar with wire coding - are all these made to the same specifications?

  Any suggestions on good flexible conduit for light-duty, extreme environmental use?  I'd prefer to not use the el-cheapo auto parts store stuff, since that melts and fills with oil/grease deposits within minutes of being installed (it's like flypaper for dirt.)  Brands, places to buy?

  I agree on the zip ties - I'm going to be locking down pretty much every wire every 4-6 inches.  I use and REALLY like the Thomas & Betts zipties with the stainless steel tooth/gripper - they allow "infinite" tightening adjustment, instead of the ratcheting teeth like cheaper zip ties.  They're also very UV and chemical resistant if you get the right ones.  A bit more expensive, but I've found that it pays back quickly (I recently tried using some Harbor Freight zipties someone loaned me, and I pulled it apart with moderate pressure just tightening it!)

JT

[Doug]

Hubble brand Poly tough is a resonably price non metalic flexable conduit, but its intended for short runs of control wiring and not as a subsitute for mechanical production of conductors in exposed wiring (PVC, EMT, rigid or armoured cable ) Conseal is another brand (made with steel armour ) conduit like the poly tough but a little better. Teck cable is also nice, it offers mechanical protection as well as being suitable for dry and wet locations or underground use. Your generator/system may require a second disconect means if it feeds a second building check into this with your local inspector. Your primary disconect and controls may also have to be within 10 feet and a clear line of sight depending on regulations in your area and there are grounding and bonding issues too.

Doug

[jtodd]

Doug, thanks for the data.  This will be for all 12v wiring on the chassis, and while it is a "permanent" genset, it will not be the primary power for the location nor will it feed back to the grid so I'm going to close my eyes on the issues surrounding code for the moment. 

I think most of the Hubbell stuff is a bit too heavy-duty, and I've done some searching in the past few hours but not come up with anything in the range of what I'm looking for, but I haven't found a full Hubbell product list - just references to their steel conduit line.  I guess I don't need metallic conduit, but it needs to be biodiesel resistant and reasonable to pull wires through.  I figure 3/4" would be more than enough - maybe 5/8" would be fine.

I've found McMaster Carr  (http://www.mcmaster.com/) selling nylon conduit for about $1.48/ft (.42 ID - 3146K13) which is a bit spendy.  There is a different, promising type called "Super Tough" (7581K41) which looks like it might fit the bill and it's "only" $.73 per foot.  Is this the "Poly Tough" you mention in your notes?

Do you have any links for the Teck and Conseal brands?

JT

[hotater]

Check out the boat wiring supply houses.  They have tinned and triple sealed cable and wire for all kinds of salt water applications.
  I bought a BIG box of waterproof Hubbels from a dairy being demolished.... all my equipment and even outdoor extension cords have Hubble waterproof connectors.

I'm REALLY cautious when it comes to gravity and electricty...

[Doug]

Teck is trade name for armoured cable with an outter PVC  jacket, steel and inner PVC to protect the conductors you can buy it any place that sells cable. In your case I would look for some multy conductor cable. I've used multi conductor teck #14 wire ( availabale with 20 or 30 conductors ), but you can get 3 and 4 conductor teck in any size from 14 to 500 mcm. Its not cheap but its the best product on the market.

Poly tough or conceal, best jst go to an electrical suplier and tell them you want a flexable metalic or nonmetalic conduit and ask what they have in stock. When sizing a conduit never fill them beyond 40% of capacity this is to allow for a certan amount of heat transfer.

Doug

[BigGreen]

M22759/11 is mil spec teflon coated nickel plated copper wire used in aerospace and military aircraft. It's not the cheapest choise but it's the best. Just don't clamp or tie it too tight.

BG