Author Topic: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....  (Read 42986 times)

BruceM

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2015, 03:39:00 PM »
And to add to the confusion, my "1/2 HP" deep well pump is rated at 1150 watts (230V 60Hz) running.


dieselgman

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2015, 04:00:26 PM »
We do have some folks running small turbos on their CS type engines. I am not aware of any data sets or experimentation that would give us any kind of empirical information about the exact effects of and ideal compression ratios on the CS Lister with forced induction. I do know that the lower compression ratio is where you need to be for proper running on a garden variety COV equipped 6/1. The 8/1 is set up slightly differently with the lower ratio as standard. Both use indirect injection.  I am thinking that as long as you reach the fuel ignition temperature in the air charge at the right time in relation to fuel injection then any ratios higher than that are not going to yield much benefit and indeed will begin a decline in overall efficiency.

For sure the combustion and energy dynamics are more complicated than just temperature and pressure... simple and yet complicated is a fair assessment.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 04:07:43 PM by dieselgman »
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starfire

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2015, 11:11:02 AM »
And to add to the confusion, my "1/2 HP" deep well pump is rated at 1150 watts (230V 60Hz) running.


Hello Bruce, yes, and my Chinese drill press proudly proclaims 3/4 hp, but sadly, It can be stopped very easily by simply grasping the chuck. Me thinks we have a way to go with ratings, even these days. Perhaps we could invent a new measurement system, real hp and imagined hp? My last post was a tad confusing, I was trying to say it takes around 820 something  mechanical watts to generate 750 electrical watts.   Your motor...... cannot explain that one, unless its extremely inefficient?

As an aside, today I had a phone call to attend a non running CS Lister 3hp, this is the oldest one I have ever seen.  I will get some pics of this one and get them on here, you guys may find it interesting. This one looks to be the very first model  Lister made. Its oddball, as it has a German name plate. This engine was sitting in a shed  up the coast road for 50 something  years I was told, dumped there because the farmer bought a replacement  electric shearing plant back in 1965.... for shearing the wool off sheep for those city dwellers that may not know these things. It had full compression, and once the injectorl pump was cleared  it fired up almost immediately, a few blue smoke rings, and settled into a smooth idle.  I have left the new owner instructions to clean out the sump, refresh with clean oil, and whip the big end journal off to check its condition, although it ran so quiet that there probably is little doubt  it  will be fine.  Its just to be sure of the white metal shells... in my experience, age can make these crumble into flakes, and eventually damage the engine. The fuel pump was quite confusing to reassemble, it took several tries.... there were no ident marks to easily relocate the parts, and, as everyone knows, if there are several ways to do something.............


dieselgman

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2015, 03:28:04 PM »
That is a remarkably simple pre-heater idea using the modified COV plug! Very enlightening scientific data regarding both injection timing and pressures and exactly what happens with engine performance and emissions as a result!

Wow!   :o
Who amongst us could accomplish this much detailed and careful measurement?


Thanks for posting this!

dieselgman
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M61hops

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2015, 12:10:19 AM »
I second dieselgmans "Wow" and double down on it  :o !  A great find and should go into the wall of knowledge thread!  I like the COV plug heat exchanger idea but not sure that it's better than an electrical add on to the injector line because of the need for compression fittings and cutting the line.  However, they calculated the wattage equivalent of the heat gain from this plug mod to be between 23 to 42 watts so there you go for an electric heater!  Very thourough testing and a great article!                  Leland
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millman56

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2015, 12:21:34 AM »
Thanks for that Starfire and of course the people who did the work,  it`s a very useful research paper for anyone using alternative fuels in the CS type and possibly other type pre-combustion chamber diesel engines.   The carefully noted effects of advancing the injection timing concur with my redneck observations of a consequentially lowered EGT.

Mark.  

starfire

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2015, 03:08:12 AM »
I was also pleased  that this chap had taken the time to investigate this, a huge effort on his part. . It seems odd that this information seems rather thin on the ground considering originally deisels were designed to run on vegetable oil, I think actual diesel fuel was only available much later  when the petroleum industry evolved/developed. Was it "laziness" and convenience that later had diesels using proper diesel fuel? I used to do, for my job,  electronics work on marine vessels, and often wondered about the larger ships burning heavy crude. This stuff had the consistency of light grease, and had to be heated prior to being pumped, pressurised and injected. To me, with my limited knowledge, it seemed a very poor low quality fuel. But, burn it did, with a reasonably clean exhaust, and these engines ran for literally decades, pretty much non stop, with no carbon problems. I wonder just how this was done. Perhaps we need to put more effort into fine tuning our running temperatures..... are they too low perhaps? Do these huge marine engines run at very high temperatures.?
 Given that our engines dont have a pressurised cooling sytem, the maximum we can acheive is 100 degrees C /212 F.... maybe this contributes to the carbon problem when burning crappy fuels.... do we need hotter? The common mention of "fluffy" and soft carbon deposits from many on here seems to suggest this may be so. The heavy construction design of our engines suggests they could stand a fair increase in running temp, as long as no rapid cooling could take place to cause cracking. I dont know.... just thinking out loud. Petrol engine carbon is always hard and dry on a good running and properly tuned engine..... soft fluffy carbon is a sign something is not right. To investigate this ourselves, we would need a pressurised cooling system. Elevated temperatures would not cause any detonation problems, but may compromise bore and piston lubrication, although oil temperatures in modern car engines is way more over what it used to be......   Were these older engines limited by the lubricants available at the time?












dieselgman

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2015, 04:16:35 AM »
I do not have all the answers, but I do know that 200F cooling jackets and 400F exhaust gas temps are more than adequate to keep one of the Lister CS engines running clean and fully operational for thousands of hours. Dirty exhaust and "fluffy" carbon buildups come from fuel that is not being fully burned in the combustion chamber. From long experience I can tell you the culprits are generally fuel injectors and pumps not performing properly and/or improper engine setup for full compression and optimum injection timing. When we see a dirty exhaust, we go after it until the problem is located and solved.

As the test data in the research paper has shown; ignition timing has a dramatic effect as does fuel injection pressure (all about fully atomized fuel mixture) which is, in turn, all about getting as thorough a burn of the fuel as is possible. The Lister CS is capable of being a clean burning machine, but only if it is properly set up and tuned fairly closely to match the fuel type and other environmental variables that exist. There is no doubt that a "cold" running engine is NOT conducive to efficiency, so proper attention to the cooling system and such modifications as thermostats and properly sized tanks and/or radiators for the loads can be significant factors in the overall system. The research paper identified the fuel pre-heat as one of the three modifications recommended for using WVO as primary fuel - all ultimately about getting that sought after "clean burn"!

dieselgman
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 04:27:15 AM by dieselgman »
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millman56

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2015, 10:20:39 PM »
I was also pleased  that this chap had taken the time to investigate this, a huge effort on his part. . It seems odd that this information seems rather thin on the ground considering originally deisels were designed to run on vegetable oil, I think actual diesel fuel was only available much later  when the petroleum industry evolved/developed. Was it "laziness" and convenience that later had diesels using proper diesel fuel? I used to do, for my job,  electronics work on marine vessels, and often wondered about the larger ships burning heavy crude. This stuff had the consistency of light grease, and had to be heated prior to being pumped, pressurised and injected. To me, with my limited knowledge, it seemed a very poor low quality fuel. But, burn it did, with a reasonably clean exhaust, and these engines ran for literally decades, pretty much non stop, with no carbon problems. I wonder just how this was done. Perhaps we need to put more effort into fine tuning our running temperatures..... are they too low perhaps? Do these huge marine engines run at very high temperatures.?
 Given that our engines dont have a pressurised cooling sytem, the maximum we can acheive is 100 degrees C /212 F.... maybe this contributes to the carbon problem when burning crappy fuels.... do we need hotter? The common mention of "fluffy" and soft carbon deposits from many on here seems to suggest this may be so. The heavy construction design of our engines suggests they could stand a fair increase in running temp, as long as no rapid cooling could take place to cause cracking. I dont know.... just thinking out loud. Petrol engine carbon is always hard and dry on a good running and properly tuned engine..... soft fluffy carbon is a sign something is not right. To investigate this ourselves, we would need a pressurised cooling system. Elevated temperatures would not cause any detonation problems, but may compromise bore and piston lubrication, although oil temperatures in modern car engines is way more over what it used to be......   Were these older engines limited by the lubricants available at the time?













millman56

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2015, 10:46:56 PM »
As far as I know Rudolph Diesel first patented an engine to run on coal dust, this failed, he then patented a design to run on a non volatile oil, peanut oil was one of these which was available at the time.   Around the same time  the petroleum industry was looking for a use for the  oils left over after extraction of the volatile fractions, this fuel suited the early diesel engines and as the diesel engines became more refined so did the diesel fuel.  The ease of production coupled with large volumes has ensured that the only time vegetable oils become popular is when the screws are turned on mineral oil.                                                                           I remember back in the early 70s, being shown round by my friends uncle who was a fitter there, a   peak demand  diesel power station at Buxton UK, this was powered by 2 air blast injection Mirlees engines which ran on similar stuff which you describe, bunker oil I believe

starfire

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2015, 05:41:14 AM »
Just  a quick note on balancing a Lister, or any low RPM engine for that matter. This works on high revving stuff as well but you need to put a lot more care into making it. A ring of 3/4 tubing is made to fit nicely up inside the rim of each flywheel, around the circumference. Before neatly butt welding it together, inside place 6 to 8 steel balls, and a little oil. Weld it at the top so the oil and balls sit away at the bottom and so dont get hot and burn. For low revving engines, copper tubing is fine and can be silfossed...( hard soldered) together, making sure the balls can negotiate the join.
 8 to 10 tabs are also welded to each ring... these are bent around the flywheel rim to hold the ring in position. A note here,,,, once rotating, there is no great force on this ring, as it tends to expand out toward the inside rim of the flywheel, the tabs are simply to hold it in place..
 How does this work? Once rotating, the balls will move around inside the ring and automatically take up a position that cancels the vibration. If  the weight of the balls exceed the weight required, they will simply relocate themselves to a position that will cancel the excess. This is a form of dynamic balance that changes with RPMs. Both flywheels need to be done this way to prevent "walking".
 The effectiveness of this approach can be simply demonstrated by placing a handful of small  glass or steel  marbles inside a known out of balance tubeless car tyre/rim assembly, refitting to a front axle,  and driving down the road. This simple demo wont completely cancel perfectly every time  because the marbles are not restrained latterally/axially, but can travel side to side, but will give a very good indication of effectiveness.  
Another beneficial effect with this, it also has a small effect on torsional vibration, this is the "twisting" motion, exaggerated by having very heavy flywheels, and few power strokes.
 This manufacturing method works well on spoked flywheels as mine are, I cannot comment on the full cheeked versions. Higher revving engines need to use smaller diameter steel "bundy" tube, with more balls, and a more robust mounting method. The effect of this "mod" can be quite dramatic, as any static balancing can never cancel all the forces involved. Depending on the extra weights required, more or less balls may be needed, but err on the heavy side.... varies with engine.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 06:32:52 AM by starfire »

millman56

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2015, 07:32:42 AM »
Interesting twist on active dynamic balancing,   I can`t just understand what force makes the balls take up positions to counter the inbalance though.   If my garage owning buddy will oblige I`ll try the marbles method with his wheel balancer.
Would the torsional vibration or twisting motion in fact be gyroscopic precession?  This is I understand, caused by the acceleration and deceleration forces of the piston and rod on the spinning mass of the flywheels, this reaction acts at 90 degrees lagging ( I think) to the applied force on the crankshaft, of the piston and rod causing the engine to rotate about it`s vertical axis.  I you  start a CS up whilst it`s suspended and free to rotate, this effect is very noticeable.

Mark.
 

dieselspanner

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2015, 07:43:28 AM »
Hi All

Rudolph Diesel got the first patent accepted but a Brit by the name of Herbert Akroyd-Stuart got there first!

Akroyd-Stuart's engines were built from 26 June 1891 by Richard Hornsby and Sons as the Hornsby Akroyd Patent Oil Engine under licence and were first sold commercially on 8 July 1892. It was the first internal combustion engine to use a pressurised fuel injection system.

See Wikipedia for more details.

If Akroyd-Stuart had got his admin together we'd have all been driving 2 liter turbo 'Herberts'!!

Cheers Stef
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starfire

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Re: My old CS Lister, still working at 75....
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2015, 07:59:24 AM »
Interesting twist on active dynamic balancing,   I can`t just understand what force makes the balls take up positions to counter the inbalance though.   If my garage owning buddy will oblige I`ll try the marbles method with his wheel balancer.
Would the torsional vibration or twisting motion in fact be gyroscopic precession?  This is I understand, caused by the acceleration and deceleration forces of the piston and rod on the spinning mass of the flywheels, this reaction acts at 90 degrees lagging ( I think) to the applied force on the crankshaft, of the piston and rod causing the engine to rotate about it`s vertical axis.  I you  start a CS up whilst it`s suspended and free to rotate, this effect is very noticeable.

Mark.
 
Quote
Hi Mark, yes you are on to it, its all to do with lead/lag, both torsional and linear vibration. This method can only work with rotational forces, the up down linear  motion is transferred to an offset around a circle . ... ie, any up/down fore/aft movement is vectored around the circle, the moveable weights  then position themselves at a node. The back and forth motion of the weights inside the ring  try to cancel any  torsional "whipping" , they cannot do this completely unless we have a rubber crankshaft, or rubber mounted flywheels,  allowing a relative movement between mover....piston.... and weight.... flywheel, so a small amount of damping  can only  occur by  the balls running back and forth  in the oil causing a frictional loss, much as the usual  harmonic balancer damps via frictional losses in the rubber.  Its easier to explain with maths, but yea, you have the idea.