My old CS Lister, still working at 75....

[starfire]

Mr Listard, Thanks so much for that info!! The 650 rpm then identifies my engine as a 3.5/1 as it does also have the bigger crankpin, either originally, or latterly. As you point out, it does appear  uneconomic  to do this. I will have a rethink......

[dieselspanner]

Hi

I Don't know how this stacks up for you,

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister-parts.asp

The $499 deal for a rebuild kit seems good to me, although I think in terms of British Pounds, add a cylinder and you're pretty much there.

I've just ordered as many spares as could be fitted into a a large US Postal Services box, delivery to France was around $85, wherever I order from I'll have to pay for shipping so 50 quid didn't seem out of order. it was all dealt with by Dan Reed, who was very helpful, especially with sourcing the cheapest delivery.

Should anyone be interested in the quality, or delivery time etc. I'll post more on request.

Cheers Stef

[dieselgman]

Stef,

You would have to add crankshaft and connecting rod to make the full conversion discussed by starfire... and the cylinder block and head in the CMD offerings are of an Indian modified 5-stud design (and also sleeved), rather than a match for the original Dursley parts. I believe I read that these are a proper fit for Anand Powerline Listeroids. If the Anand  is the engine type you are working with, then you can also order these direct from Anand and save a large chunk of shipping and import costs if you are somewhere other than the USA.

We do not recommend a conversion of this type unless that is the only possibility open to you. "Stay original" is the Lister mantra, and since that is no longer viable for most, then at least stay true to the original designs so that your parts will interchange. If you are working with an original Dursley engine, then those spares (and kits) are our specialty at DES. We stock 100% of everything including the crankshafts and all the major castings - as close to original as it is possible to obtain anywhere these days.

dieselgman

[rosebud]

This forum is a great place to learn...

This winter, a friend graciously arranged so that a 6/1 could be situated in my garage.....fun project. This made the SL1 available for future re-purposing. Your idea of using two alternators in a 24volt system is intriguing. Thinking of turning down the rpm's on the SL1 to ~1000 and bolting on the alternators as a supplemental way to charge up a 24 volt battery bank.

re winter: this year we had the most snow in eastern Canada, since 1963.....something shifted on the global warming trend thing ?   

[starfire]

Totally agree, fantastic help and information on here.
 Well,looks like my spares  problem solved! Not quite 4 hours drive from me across the central divide, I have found another 3.5 hp Lister in supposedly very good running condition. Its mounted on a trolley, has just been  used at shows apparently. Complete at $900 NZ... thats around $700us. Willl check this out over the coming weekend. I guess its a little strange for you guys, when here, the real Lister is easier to find than an Indian clone.

[starfire]

Well, got back from town last week  to find my generator had stopped!! Copious quantities of fuel oil running down from the cylinder head looking very much like  the injector body may have cracked, it looked terminal. I have avoided messing with injectors too much, understanding them to be a bit of a  "black art". But no, these things are actually very simple. Turns out the constant high pressure spurts and time had slowly and surely worn a groove between the nozzle and the main body. Only one thing to do was to carefully grind a few thou back to good metal and lap the two together.  This creates another problem.... the pingle valve is now too long, and once the nozzle and body are retensioned, it cannot move!!! After a few frantic cups of coffee to settle the nerves, figured a spacer may just be the answer here. The pingle vqlve is a lot like a fuel float valve in a carburettor, in this case its heavily spring loaded, the fuel pressure at something like 16 Bar lifts it a few thou off its seat, this is what causes the "creak" when turning the engine. The reason being to allow the fuel  to attain a goodly pressure before it does the squirting.
I cut a disk from .2mm aluminium, and drilled a 1/4" hole through the center to clear the pingle valve shaft. Another .5mm hole was drilled to allow the flow of fuel from the body to the nozzle, and another 1/16" hole to accommodate the locating pin. Once together, I temporarily mounted it onto the injector pipe, a small prayer to Mr R A Lister, and wound it over. SUCCESS!! It took a few tries to adjust the spray pattern and check for leaks, but once fitted, the old girl fired up and ran just as good as always. I had noticed the injector weeping a little lately, and chose to ignore it wishfully thinking it will go away. It didnt. Now it has.
So, anyone on a budget, or unable to find a replacement, take the bull by the horns and have a shot at fixing it yourself. They are dead easy to dismantle, and a few moments thought will discover how they work. Just keep everything SCRUPULOUSLY clean, the slightest bit of shit will jam it up entirely.... clearances are minute. The pingle valve MUST move freely. The final injector tweek is done with the engine hot under a constant load. Adjust slowly the pressure screw under the top injector cover while watching the fuel rack position for minimum. This will also coincide with the cleanest exhaust, but interestingly, as I found, not the best spray pattern. This can be explained I think by the injector working into a high compression pressure when operating that we cannot see, but it looks wrong when squirting at atmospheric. Anyhow, another successful repair that took a few hours, and saved a heap of time and money, that has to be good.  Its done a few hundred hours since with no leaks or issues.... insert happy face here.

[biggkidds]

Great thinking out of the box. I love repairs like this. Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing.

[ses]

Since you ask: crankshaft and big end shell bearings (for the above reasons), bumping clearance shims, connecting rod (narrower small end bush), piston, gudgeon pin, piston rings, cylinder block, cylinder head gasket, injector pump, element, injector nozzle, inlet and exhaust valves, cylinder head, and rocker shaft pedestals*.

*The CS3-1 uses two rocker pedestals instead of the more familiar central single rocker pedestal. An identical two pedestal arrangement can also be seen on the VA engine.

It is also possible there are differences with the flywheels, due to the differing weight of the reciprocating masses.

Finally for any prospective purchasers of a Lister CS 3-1, unless you know that the Chome cylinder bore and piston are in excellent condition, think carefully before buying, as new pistons and cylinder blocks are rare in the extreme, and converting to CS 6-1 specification will be expensive.

Thanks for that valued feedback!

I have larger journals on my 3/1. Do you mind telling me why I need to change the fuel pump and injector/nozzle?

Cheers

[dieselgman]

I believe that the fuel delivery rate will need to be different for the larger displacement engine... thus a different larger diameter pump element and different injector nozzle.

dieselgman

[starfire]

I believe that the fuel delivery rate will need to be different for the larger displacement engine... thus a different larger diameter pump element and different injector nozzle.

dieselgman

Dieselgman..... Im not so sure this is a problem. Diesels by nature are lean burning, there is laways more air than necessary for combustion. Theoretically at least, if the pump or injector capacity/delivery  is slightly less than designed, the engine will run normally, just a little longer duration on the fuel cycle to get the same amount of work, the rack position will be more toward full out. The reduced fuel  will only affect the full throttle output, not part loading. A similar thing happens with a partial blockage in the injector nozzle when the engine appears to be overloaded or working hard when in fact its just starving for fuel, but continues to run happily and normally at part loading. The governor hides the problem by automagically upping the duration of the squirt as much as it needs. Given the 6hp cylinder is only a small percentage larger than its smaller 3.5hp brother, the capacity alone will probably not require a huge increase if any in fueling.  However, I suspect the different head design of the 6hp probably breathes better, valves, porting etc that this may be the primary  reason for the larger output, and to realise the extra, more fuel would definitely be needed at full noise. The 3.5hp head is very restricted. With few 3.5hp engines in service, all this is probably a moot point. Conversely, a larger injector on a smaller engine should see the governor settle below the normal running position, all things being equal, the engine should still run fine. The only way I can see a diesel running too rich is to completely disable the governor, and pile on the load and the fuel..
I have resurrected a totally shagged fuel injector pump by drilling the pump housing to a llarger size, and making a replacement piston rod, compete with spiral fuel spill.... fiddly work with a Dremel. This pump works fine suggesting a fair lattitude and departure from standard  is possible. Incidentally, when burning waste oil, fuel pumps can be pretty sloppy, the extra viscosity of the fuel helps retain adequate pressure despite the clearances. This is the beauty of these agricultural type machines. Unlike modern stuff, they are not running on the "edge", and are very forgiving.  The engine I obtained recently has almost 1/8 inch ring gaps... the rings are so worn, yet it starts first time with what seems to be full compression. This gives some idea of how bad things can actually get in reality. They will be replaced, blowby into the crankcase is excessive, making for a dirty engine room.
While Im here, an update on the crank  bearings shells I made. After 1200 hours, the crank and shells are perfect. I was worried after reading that Lister crank journals are case hardened only , meaning that this thin hardened layer may have been destroyed or removed with the "regrind", and they would wear rapidly. No signs of this at all, either the depth is more than I imagine, or they have "work hardened" with use. I know this happens with simple replacement  bright steel gudgeon or wrist pins.... they are soft when new, and harden with use. The injector mod continues to function well, will dismantle this in a few months to see how  the aluminium spacer is holding up under pressure.

[dieselgman]

The governor hides the problem by automagically upping the duration of the squirt as much as it needs. Given the 6hp cylinder is only a small percentage larger than its smaller 3.5hp brother, the capacity alone will probably not require a huge increase if any in fueling.  However, I suspect

I believe that you are partially correct, the governor will work hard to provide full engine speed under a given loading. Remember that it responds only to speed changes and nothing else except indirectly via engine rpm response to the changes in load. There is no fine tuning involved except for the manufacturer's design and fuel plunger sizing. The governor however cannot increase pump delivery duration beyond full-throttle operation because the camshaft and plunger volume will control that. One stroke of the pump is all you get per rotation of the camshaft. Yes, the engine will still run fine, but will NOT develop its full horsepower at full load at rated speed. Remember that these machines become most efficient when running at or near their full horsepower output and a minimum of 75% load is recommended for continuous operation. The smaller pump may indeed allow for at least 75% power output with zero noticeable loss of performance below that level.

As to the matter of tuning your engine for optimum maximum power output at its rated speed... I am sure that the Lister design engineers came up with the proper fuel delivery rates for their various engine displacements and they do indeed change the pump dynamics for each change in engine displacement! In the Bryce and CAV pumps we see a variance in pump plunger size from about 6mm up to about 8mm across just a few of the more modern small Lister diesel engines (graduated in 1/2mm increments).

I am not one for re-inventing the wheel... but all for resourceful alternative repair methods when options are limited or simply non-existent. You are certainly a good example of this and I very much appreciate your contributions here! This provides a lot of food for thought and stimulates new and creative approaches to how we might tackle our repair work.

dieselgman

[starfire]

Rated power?
I have often wondered this, and what or how  is it obtained. Is say, a 6hp Lister diesel  engine the output at the recommended RPMs at a percentage of load, or the absolute maximum it will produce? I am getting  old, and remember the  many and varied methods used over the years in England to calculate HP, we used similar methods as we were a colony back then, part of the British empire,just  like Canada and India were. . Early days it was a tax thing, car taxes were rated on cylinder number and diameter, not actual HP. This had car manufacturers doing ridiculously long strokes and small diameter cylinders. Then I think at some stage  it was established that every 100cc was 1 HP, so a 1500cc engine automatically became 15hp and was taxed on that basis, irrespective of whether it achieved that or not.. Under that system, a 427 CI Hemi V8 would be rated at around 75HP. We had DIN HP, SAE HP, Net HP, RAC HP,  Brake HP.... the latter which I assume was the only one  actually measured. I know here in New Zealand, American HP figures were known to be grossly exaggerated back then, and  the few "yank tanks" that were in this country after the war  consistently proved that.... advertising standards were pretty vague back then and all figures were open to many interpretations in any country.  In 1939, when my Lister was built/ sold, I wonder what method was used to arrive at the 3.5 hp figure? And, did any of the above apply to diesels as well, or only petrol? Maybe some of the  Brits on here may know this?
 Interestingly, in this overegulated nanny state I live in, we have restrictions on what motorcycles a learner or new driver can legally ride. They, the stupid government, decided that 250cc bikes or less were fine, obviously  less powerful, and therefore slower. Unfortunately, this allowed an inexperienced rider to purchase a 200kmh 250cc KTM pocket rocket where he would have been much safer on a 800cc Harley Davidson struggling to do 70mph. This law has now been amended to include a power to weight ratio. I site this as an example of just how published figures can be quite meaningless and downright misleading.

[dieselgman]

In the power generation world, generally everything gets rated in kW and kVa. This is a more viable and consistent measurement (available voltage vs. current) and is not in place solely because the field is defined and described by electrical engineers. It is a scientific necessity. You have mentioned the major inconsistencies in horsepower ratings and the many different standards in use. In our common small emergency power plants the same basic engine design can power a wide range of plant sizes because of changes in fuel rates, tuning, direct vs indirect injection, and accessories such as turbocharging. The Caterpillar 3304 for instance is the very same displacement basic prime mover used in 55kW through 120kW gensets in common use. In the old CS Lister equipment, fuel rates and rated speed are the major variables related to kW capacity... in identical displacement engines.  I think I usually tend to leave off horsepower as my primary point of reference as well, and would rather look at the specifications and tuning for rated speed... what is the maximum kW output without overstressing or exceeding the capacity (and accessories) of the prime mover.

I believe that most of us are used to thinking in terms of "maximum horsepower" and use the Lister model designations of 6/1, 8/1 in that light. To my knowledge, no such marketing gamesmanship is involved with Lister/Petter although they did provide sales aids "Know Your Competition" that made direct power curve comparisons with their own product vs competitors.

dieselgman

[starfire]

I picked up a very old book a while back, and saw in it a very good article and recipe on repairing cracks and voids in cast iron. These days  we use epoxy/fibreglass and other modern products, But, I think this is worth a try.
It uses rust!!
A quantity of steel wool, filings, lathe turnings, or shavings is mixed with manganese dioxide to form a lumpy paste that is forced into the crack or void with a hammer, and just left in there. As it rusts into a hard lump, it expands and "welds" itself into the surrounding metal. This according to the book written in the mid 1800s, is the standard  accepted   procedure to reclaim faulty castings. The easy way these days to get manganese dioxide is to smash open an old dry cell zinc carbon flashlight battery or three, and recycle the electrolyte paste that lays within. This method I see is approved by Loyds of London in marine castings for winches and highly stressed steam  engine components, and is again mentioned in the Admiralty handbook of Marine Engineers!!!  Wow.....
 I havent tried this myself, but certainly seems worth a go .........

[starfire]

Thanks DGman... yes, that makes sense. I see that it has until recently been a problem still. I have always used the 827 electrical watts as 1 HP, as this accounts for frictional drive and electrical losses, copper, core eddy currents, brush friction etc. and a little for power factor/DC offset.... I think the accepted figure is 750 or thereabouts.
 With forced induction, is the compression ratio dropped to compensate?  Im still learning about this stuff. I have noticed that my Lister runs "easier" when on the low compression setting with the COV despite having a very much increased bump clearance, and develops slightly more power at the lower setting, which I must say is a little at odds with what I would expect. There must be a point where more compression is not better. Obviously the engine requires power to compress, and Im guessing that after a certain point, higher compression  is ....um.... pointless..... where any additional power produced is cancelled by the increased power required. They are a bit like a two stroke engine, fascinating things to fiddle with and comprehend, simple and complicated all at the same time.