My old CS Lister, still working at 75....

[starfire]

Oiling mods.

A few more thoughts while I think of them.

 Listers are dirty inside. Its usual to find an old one full of lumpy tar where oil should be. The main reason for this, other than neglect is temperature..... the oil never gets hot, therefore any combustion by products, acids and condensate just collect in the oil. Its actually a total waste using good oil in these. This can be improved easily by extending the oil feed pipe from the pump to allow the exhaust to heat the oil before it gets back into the engine. This will help to keep the oil cleaner for longer. I dont know about Indian Listers, but the real thing simply pumps oil into two weirs above the main bearings, the overflow running down onto the small reservoir that the dipper works from, any excess then running into the sump. There is no pressure involved, but it is a goodly flow of oil. By making another oil feed pipe from 3/8 inch copper tubing, connect one end to the oil pump outlet, wrap say 10 turns around the exhaust manifold and then back to the oil feed adjacent to the oil filler, this will go a long way to extending the life of the oil. I have removed mine temporarily during the recent  "birthday".... it wont appear in the photo, the engine is very "busy" with all these add ons, and difficult to work on. 

Another mod I have just remembered is to do with burning waste oil. To prevent random losses of compression when running, the fix here is to radically narrow the valve seats, especially the exhaust. Wide seats will trap carbon preventing a seal at times, a narrow seat will "punch" through any particles. It took me ages to figure this one out..

The piston pin, or gudgean pin as we call them down under, can easily be made from a 3 1/2 length of 1 inch OD  bright shafting, there is no need to actually drill these hollow, the small end bush can be any generic bronze bush. The new pin will work harden very quickly. Rerplacement Lister parts are ridiculously expensive, and any savings  here are very welcome.

I use the cooling water to supply heat to a wall radiator in my house. After many failed attempts at thermo syphoning the water around, I found the answer lays in plumbing any ancillary's into the return line to the engine, not the outlet as would be expected. The height of the cooling "tower" or tank is what gives the water the flow, the return line can l suffer all sorts of strange routes, the radiator can be level or lower than the tank will be fine. Thats why the cooling tank in the photo is lagged.

My attempt at capturing exhaust heat via a heat exchanger was a failure. Deisels in real life have little exhaust heat, this is to do with them having a full intake of air on every stroke. At low load, much of the combustion heat is wasted heating the excess air. Ironically, this is also the secret to the diesels efficiency, there a less pumping losses than a petrol or gasoline engine that require throttling of the intake at low load, they waste power pulling a vacuum.

Worn valve guides can be simply drilled out, and bronze bushes pressed in from the top. Dont drill all the way through, leave a lip at the bottom, (port end) to allow the bush to bottom out.

When adjusting the injector valve tension, warm the engine first. Then apply a constant fixed full load, and while watching the fuel pump rack position, slowly adjust the spring tension for minimum opening. Lister dont recommend fiddling with this, but its not rocket science.... the engine knows best when its getting a good spray pattern with different fuels. Exhaust smoke is not the best indicator of combustion, as many dodgy fuels will smoke to some degree no matter what.

 When spinning car alternators, its easier on the engine to increase the pulley size on the alternators to 4 to 5 inch diameter. I use generic alloy C` section pulleys, drilled out to fit the shaft. The alternators  need to spin fast enough to allow the fan to cool them adequately, but not so fast as to rob unnecessary power. Around 1500 RPM seems about right. The engine can then sit at around 350 rpm, giving a long life with little stress.

 As already  said, alternators can simply be paralleled up to increase current, a cheaper option than buying a single high current type. The large B or battery terminal is connected to all other B terminals,  each F, or field terminal can be switched to Battery + via seperate switches to allow each alternator to be activated individually. With battery banks, its required to have one alternator to have its regulator removed to allow overcharging to equalise banks periodically. To do this varies with alternator design. Maybe I will talk about this if anyone would like that info.
Another good reason for multiple alternators is redundancy. Car alternators are cheaply made, and not designed for continuous high current charging of humongous battery banks. They die. Having several will increase reliability, its very unlikely they will all fail together. 9 months to a year seems  the average life of a car alternator used in this way.
By removing the internal diode block, and making  an external cooled  replacement, a normal "75 amp" alternator will make a very useful DC arc welder.... roughly equivalent to a 120 amp AC job.

more to come....

[starfire]

Necessity is the mother of invention...

Your story brings to mind an experience I once had out in the Alaska bush with an old homesteader and a little Briggs & Stratton pump engine. The short story is that the Briggs had heated up and seized the piston solidly in the cylinder and I simply said toss it aside and take a trip to town for a replacement. That stubborn and crafty homesteader just took a 36" pipe wrench to the main shaft and forced the thing to turn. To my utter disbelief, he soon had worked that thing back and forth until it would turn again and was soon able to start it up and resume the pumping job. It actually ran for several more days all the way to job completion. Lesson learned - never give up!

dieselgman

Yep, low tech can be better than complex. Biggest problem with Lister cranks.... few small local engineering shops  have a lathe big enough to swing them in. That said, the actual grinding takes but minutes, the setup costs are the killer.... labour costs are through the roof. The added cost to buy and ship big end shells from England to  here  are prohibitive. And, hey, its all down to learning by doing, sometimes we fail, many times not. Its good to know what works and what doesnt. Looks like you are a diesel guru.... I have had tremendous enjoyment reading whats on here. Unfortunate too.... there are so many great ideas on here I have liked. I want an electric start next.... then  to tidy up my messy installation....then......... and.....

[starfire]

A few more hints and tips as I get time. Most of these more unconventional fixes are handy when miles away from civilisation, and parts. You guts may already know this....I havent read everything on here yet!!

When constantly running dodgy fuels, increase the bump clearance. My lister runs happily with 25 thou. Not only does this decrease carbon hammering problems, it also lets the engine run quieter, lower stress.. Starting, in our temperate climate at least, appears to be unaffected.

A table spoon of oil down tthe air intake helps cold starting, and is so much easier on the internals than starting fluids. If you must, CRC 5-56 works well.

When using an open cooling drum, pour a quantity of oil on top of the water level.... this majorly reduces evaporation.

A large car propane/LPG tank makes for a very good exhaust expansion chamber, allowing for a smaller diameter and therefore cheaper exhaust pipe. The tank will absorb the pulses quickly, being close to the engine, the outlet has 3 times the time to dump the pressure. This method makes for an almost silent exhaust. The air intake then is more noisy!!

Its easier fitting the piston and rod into the cylinder before fitting the cylinder to the engine, Push the piston up to TDC, and turn the crank to BDC. When removing the cylinder , undo the big end bolts, push the piston to TDC and remove as a unit. Its also possible to replace the bottom oil ring from underneath in an assembled engine, the piston will drop down far enough to have access. The bore chamfer is at the bottom too which helps.

The injector return pipe can be redirected to drip into the valve cavity for automatic lubrication of these often neglected items.....oil burners only.

With worn bores, high mileage engines,enlarge the oil drain holes under the lower oil control ring to 3/16 inch, up from 1/4. This will ease oil consumption, and help prevent blocking with carbon.. as likely  blowby past the compression rings is also happening. This is what causes a Lister to "make oil" This will get another few thousand hours out of a worn engine..

Annual exhaust cleaning is made easy with an oxy acetylene plant. Heat the carbon at the engine outlet end , and when burning, feed full oxygen. This will burn the pipes through to the other end, progress can be seen as it progresses along the pipe, it will change colour at the flame front as it travels along. If you have neighbours, wait till they go out.

When designing any add on, plan for a safety fail...ie.... if the device fails, make sure .the engine cannot destroy itself. Also, for working engines,simple is best.

A useful  power improvement can be had in engines running at a constant speed. A long inlet duct at the right length will pulsate in time with the induction stroke, a rudimentary form of supercharging. This is how my 3.5 hp can turn 150 amps at 24 volts= 3600 watts. Think of a water ram pump.... same principal. Water laden  air is also cooler, and more dense also contributing to useful  added efficiency.

Cleaning parts, especially cast iron, use laundry powder. Mix to a paste with a little water and slap it on. A scrubber brush will work it in. LP has caustic additives, gives cast iron that nice "blue" tinge, just right to make the paint stick.

To clean an old motor sump of the tar and other nasties, the good old water blaster, or power washer as you may call them works great. No where near as messy as doing it with by hand with kerosene. A slight oily film will remain, so no worries with rust over the short term either.

[veggie]

Welcome starfire !
And thanks for sharing your system and the needed repairs.
Very interesting.

Cheers and good luck,
veggie

Greetings from Canada  

[listard-jp2]

The piston pin, or gudgean pin as we call them down under, can easily be made from a 3 1/2 length of 1 inch OD  bright shafting, there is no need to actually drill these hollow, the small end bush can be any generic bronze bush. The new pin will work harden very quickly.

As a result of this modification, your engine must have a noticeable small end knock, as the last time I looked the CS engine engine has a 1.250" diameter gudgeon pin.

[dieselgman]

An obvious typo... but I would not recommend increasing the reciprocating mass up on the small-end unless I had no other easy choices. I think that most of the "fixes" offered by starfire are good and resourceful, but dictated by a remote location and a lack of spare parts at hand.

dieselgman

[starfire]

An obvious typo... but I would not recommend increasing the reciprocating mass up on the small-end unless I had no other easy choices. I think that most of the "fixes" offered by starfire are good and resourceful, but dictated by a remote location and a lack of spare parts at hand.

dieselgman

The piston pin, or gudgean pin as we call them down under, can easily be made from a 3 1/2 length of 1 inch OD  bright shafting, there is no need to actually drill these hollow, the small end bush can be any generic bronze bush. The new pin will work harden very quickly.

As a result of this modification, your engine must have a noticeable small end knock, as the last time I looked the CS engine engine has a 1.250" diameter gudgeon pin.

You have to remember the over engineering in these engines. A 1000cc Lister  cylinder developing 3.5 hp in a similar context would mean one of your 427 hemi V8s would poke out around  25hp!!  What size are 427 supercharged 2000 hp gudgean pins? Id hazard a bet they would be the same, or likely less. The  reciprocating weight stresses are largely nullified by the low operating speeds in these old engines, and the longer conrod having less angular force. The original gudgeon in a 3.5 Lister is 1 inch, they are possibly larger in the 5/1- 6/1, Im not sure on this. The 3/1 is an old and rare species now. The top end is unique to that model, but I think the bottom end is the same as the larger engines. I dont even think these are produced in India either. I will eventually get a 6 hp version, for  no other reason than easier parts availability.

[dieselgman]

Yes, that does explain a couple things... you have one of the early small-bore CS engines that use a much smaller wrist-pin. On top of that, very few service parts remain for them. It might be interesting to make a full comparison parts list for converting one of the 3/1s to a 6/1.

dieselgman

[starfire]

Yes, that does explain a couple things... you have one of the early small-bore CS engines that use a much smaller wrist-pin. On top of that, very few service parts remain for them. It might be interesting to make a full comparison parts list for converting one of the 3/1s to a 6/1.

dieselgman

I have read on here that the 6hp top end will simply bolt straight on to my bottom end. Is this true do you know? I thought the crank journals may be larger than mine, but I am unsure on this. The 3.5 piston is 3 3/4 diameter, the 6 horse is 1 inch bigger at 4 3/4 I believe? You are correct, parts for the "little" engine are almost impossible now. When I have time, will do a little homework myself with this, but I guess you will know. Also, do the Indian parts fit directly onto a genuine Lister, or are there slight problems in this regard? If I was in America, I would simply go out and buy a complete new engine!! They are unavailable here.

[rosebud]

Welcome to the forum....I enjoyed your comments....you could write a book or a least a technical paper....good reading...especially for a newbie likes your truly. regards...rosebud...another Canadian

[dieselgman]

My understanding is that the crank journals are indeed considerably different between those models, but unsure if that variance holds true across all of them. Lister increased the CS journal size fairly early on, and then kept the larger size throughout the decades afterward. There may be some 3/1 engines extant that have the larger crank journals and would thereby be compatible with all the top-end from a 6/1. I have not pursued this research very far as of now but I do have a few of each original model at my disposal for inspection and comparison.

The majority of the Indian "clone" parts are a good fit with original Dursley equipment. They are often slightly inferior in fit and finish, but generally are workable given the lack of many or most of the original replacement parts these days. Bear in mind that I am not saying that all the Indian parts - especially ones for altered Indian Listeroid designs - are going to be a fit.

dieselgman

[starfire]

Welcome to the forum....I enjoyed your comments....you could write a book or a least a technical paper....good reading...especially for a newbie likes your truly. regards...rosebud...another Canadian

Hey Rosebud, Im not Canadian, although we both used to exist under the British commonwealth in days gone by, until the Brits stopped colonising everything..... Geographically I think our countries are similar, but we have marginally better neighbours.... .  Thanks for the kind words!! Be aware, Im no mechanic, this is all self learned from desperation, hard won experience and necessity. Should I catalogue my mistakes and failures? Now, that WOULD  make interesting reading.
 
 And DGman, thanks for the info, and taking the time.  I am pretty sure my old engine has smaller journals at 2 inch mains, 2 -1/2 big end, and apologies to all, the gudgeon is actually 1- 1/4..... early signs of a failing memory.  If this is the case, my crank  being smaller, I would hesistate to increase the loading. I have an air cooled 12hp Ruston Hornsby doing nothing, but these things are really too noisy in a modern world, and its a real pig to start.. the cooling fins tend to amplify the mechanical clatter, water jackets have an insulating effect. I will do some homework.

[broncodriver99]

I think he was seconding veggies's greetings from Canada.

[broncodriver99]

Geographically I think our countries are similar, but we have marginally better neighbours.... . 

Que?

[listard-jp2]

My understanding is that the crank journals are indeed considerably different between those models, but unsure if that variance holds true across all of them. Lister increased the CS journal size fairly early on. There may be some 3/1 engines extant that have the larger crank journals and would thereby be compatible with all the top-end from a 6/1

That holds true for the CS 3-1, as it has 2.250" big end journal diameter, combined with thick wall bronze backed big end shell bearings (the same big end arrangements can also be found on early CS 5-1, and 10-2 engines ). However, when Listers introduced the CS 6-1 engine, it was necessary to increase the big end journal to 2.500" diameter. This modification was also carried across to the CS 3-1 and it became a CS 3.5-1 (RPM increased from 600 to 650), additionally the CS 10-2 then became the CS 12-2. Back in the day, when working on one of the CS 3-1 engines that had serious big end journal wear, changing to the later crankshaft was a common occurance for Lister service engineers. The only other item requiring changing was of course the big end shell bearings.

It might be interesting to make a full comparison parts list for converting one of the 3/1s to a 6/1.

Since you ask: crankshaft and big end shell bearings (for the above reasons), bumping clearance shims, connecting rod (narrower small end bush), piston, gudgeon pin, piston rings, cylinder block, cylinder head gasket, injector pump, element, injector nozzle, inlet and exhaust valves, cylinder head, and rocker shaft pedestals*.

*The CS3-1 uses two rocker pedestals instead of the more familiar central single rocker pedestal. An identical two pedestal arrangement can also be seen on the VA engine.

It is also possible there are differences with the flywheels, due to the differing weight of the reciprocating masses.

Finally for any prospective purchasers of a Lister CS 3-1, unless you know that the Chome cylinder bore and piston are in excellent condition, think carefully before buying, as new pistons and cylinder blocks are rare in the extreme, and converting to CS 6-1 specification will be expensive.