Author Topic: Basic questions from a proud new owner?  (Read 40986 times)

TxBlacksmith

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Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« on: March 23, 2015, 06:25:48 AM »
  Hello all. wow what a great site!.  I am now the proud new owner of a 6/1 SOM.  (Engine only)  I purchased it from another member on here, and just got it moved to the backyard. 
It is in several pieces, and now the clean up will commence.  I don't have any experience with diesels, but when I was younger, I spent a lot of time working on and rebuilding 2 stroke
motorcycles with my father.  I have been wondering the best cleaner/degreaser to use on the engine.   I was thinking of Gunk concentrate mixed with diesel.  Old school , I know, but
I am familiar with it.  Wow, kerosene had gotten to be ridiculously priced.  Suggestions?

I plan on an overall clean up and reassembly, and will replace whatever i find needs it.  The engine is mostly complete, I have a video of it running when it was overseas, so I know it was running.

Other than gaskets, what spare parts should I stock up on?  I plan on using this engine to power a generator at my cabin in east Texas that is off the grid.  No power/water access.   Most times, it will
get 36-48 hours use, although more during hunting season.  In the next couple of years, it will be the power source for my blacksmith shop. 

Should I plan on buying a 5KW ST type head?  I know the rating is for less, but it seems most run a 5KW on their 6/1 engines.

There are plenty more questions to come, and I am spending hours reading posts of all types, so please forgive my ignorance, and sometime repetitive question. 
Cant wait to get started!

38ac

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2015, 12:36:45 PM »
Hard to say what it will need. "running" can mean anything from well to just barely. As you get things cleaned up and have questions on individual parts post them and somebody will jump in with answers. Good thing is the Indian Mfg spares are good quality and meat most needs.

I went away from distillate cleaners years ago for reasons you stated. When disassembled every piece of a CS will fit in an ordinary 55 gallon drum with the top removed. Set one up on some blocks under a tree or tripod and build a fire under it or use propane if you live where a wood fire is a problem. If you want to save the paint use dishwasher soap from the dollar store. If you dont care about the paint lye works very well (some basic safety gear required when messing with lye)  Use a block and tackle to lower the crankcase into the drum, everything else can be hung on wires hooked over the top edge.

I like the 5KW head too as when combined with the heavy flywheels you will be able to start motor loads such as a well pump easily. Als gives you 2.5KW per side when set up for 220/110 operations
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

dieselgman

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2015, 12:38:33 PM »
Welcome to the Forum!

Any number of petroleum based solvents will clean up oil... how extensive is your job? If you are really serious about cleaning iron castings, then a heated sodium hydroxide solution with water is most effective. This is what we use in our cabinet pressure washer and it is also commonly used in hot tanks.

Your main wear parts will be bearings/rings/gaskets/valve train. To a somewhat lesser extent would be piston and cylinder. A close inspection will tell you most of what you need to know about condition of your parts.

A 6/1 will spin a 5kW (or larger) generator head without any issues... output limited only by your available horsepower in such a case. If you might be moving to a larger setup in future, it is one way to migrate a portion of your investment. The ST heads are not the only good choices, but certainly the least expensive up front.

dieselgman

ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

Tom

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2015, 05:08:08 PM »
I have found that Easy-Off oven cleaner will clean parts and remove loose paint. It's a great final prep before painting. I get a bit over 3kw out of my 6/1 before it starts making grey smoke.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

TxBlacksmith

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2015, 08:40:49 PM »
Thanks for the help, in advance.  I will be picking brains as much as  i can. 
As  to the generators, any other recommendations other than the Chinese ST heads?
I don't mind paying more for the better quality, but it still needs to be repairable by me. 

As to replacement parts, any recommended dealers here in the Americas, that carry the 7 stud cylinders and heads?
The only ones I have seen to this point are from Britain.  This guy comes well spoken of, but I am dreading the freight charges, etc,
from sending stuff across the big pond.   
Also, I see lots of posts about ordering the Utterpower CD which is now no longer available.  Is this a great storehouse of information?

dieselgman

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2015, 08:52:16 PM »
Pricing for best quality generator heads gets pretty high these days... Marathon (now made in China) sits basically on top of the charts... Stamford NewAge is slightly below them, then there are Chinese copies of the Stamford for about 1/2 price... and then about 1/2 again below that is the Chinese ST brush type head. These are the only 4 varieties I would recommend taking a look at. There are certainly many others around as well. Do not bother with the Indian or Italian designs if you want to minimize issues. The pricing is far enough apart that you really have to have a good reason to go up the scale or at least a lot of extra money to invest in it.

This Forum is the best storehouse of Lister information that I know of and things have moved on considerably since a lot of George's early documentation took place. Nothing wrong with his materials if you can still find them somewhere.
There are two reliable parts resources in the continental USA that I am aware of - CMD up in Maine, and DES in Kansas. Yes the standard Lister designed parts are readily available including the 7-stud cylinders and heads.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 09:00:44 PM by dieselgman »
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TxBlacksmith

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2015, 02:24:40 PM »
One of my main bearing mounts has a pc missing out of it.  It was this was when I got the engine. 
Given its location, should I repair or replace it?
I had thought of brazing in a pc in its place and using a large washer to distribute the load?
Or should just buy a new replacement?


dieselgman

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2015, 03:17:07 PM »
Simplest and best practice says, "replace the casting!"

That portion of flange does not normally have to bear a lot of stress, but the housing must obviously remain absolutely stationary in relationship to the main crankcase. I wonder why it is broken in the first place. Maybe a kludge with a big hammer had his way at some point in its life?

dieselgman
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Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

TxBlacksmith

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 04:55:43 AM »
Gee, I was afraid you would say that.  :)  I suppose originals that take the felt seals are impossible to find. 
And if that is the case, I guess it would be best to replace both sides with the ones that take the rubber seals?
Maybe someone out there has an old spare laying around?   ???

dieselgman

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 12:10:43 PM »
I'll have to take a fresh look at what we have around the shop. We used to have castings to fit the original style felt seals.
Please email me a reminder gary@dieselgen.com - failing memory these days.  :-[

dieselgman
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 01:41:27 AM by dieselgman »
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38ac

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 02:44:16 PM »
Gary (Dieselgman) is too kind, he is the ONLY steady and reliable source of CS type parts in the US of A. CMD has a lot of inventory but caters to engines of the "Powerline" type  of which many parts do not interchange.

Sure wish this had been posted a couple days earlier, I was just at an auction last week that was supposed to have a "lot" of Lister CS parts but it turned out they had exactly 4 CS parts, A broken 6/1 flywheel, two broken blocks,,,, and one main bearing housing,,, >:( I left before the sale started.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

TxBlacksmith

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2015, 01:14:30 AM »
A couple of removal questions.  Trying to keep this mostly on one thread. 
First, how to safely remove the brass engine plates, etc, don't want to bugger up these plates as they seem to be near impossible to replace.
Since they are driven brass rivets, will the pop out, or will they have to be drilled?

Second, and much more important.  I am trying to remove the cam, and the taper pin on the collar opposite side of the fuel
pump, and it is stuck hard, nothing tap out on the small end,   I tried a couple of small punches and nothing moved, didn't want to pound too hard, as I am unsure of how brittle the bearing/bushing may be on that end.

Can I heat with a torch, or is the cam hardened?  I don't want to detemper the shaft if so.  Will this need to be drilled out?  That seems a bit difficult given the limited access.



dieselgman

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2015, 01:51:19 AM »
I have been able to pop out the rivets with very small wedge tools and a bit of patience.

On the taper pins... firstly be certain which side is which. You don't want to drive it tighter into its bore so must find the smaller end to focus your efforts on. I have had to partially drill them in the past to get sufficient stretch on the part while hammering with a drift punch. If you cannot get it to move, then carefully drilling a core most of the way through but not quite all the way will allow a good quality drift to loosen it up the rest of the way without damaging the cam or the collar.

I am a big proponent of using heat for stuck parts... but you must be careful to avoid damaging things. A little will go a long way for some pieces, a little too much can do more damage than good. On the taper pins, mild heat on the collar might be helpful as long as you don't transfer too much into the shaft. Try a little at a time but stop if you start seeing any color change.

dieselgman
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TxBlacksmith

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2015, 06:30:16 PM »
  I got the pin out and the collar off with a little PB blaster and torch heat.  Cam looks really good without much wear, maybe a little at the fuel pump cam.  Overall, most of the interior
parts seem to be in good shape. Happy fot that!. 
How difficult is the fuel pump to disassemble, clean and put back together?  I have it soaking in kerosene at the moment.  I get the impression that the spring inside is difficult recompress?
The lower half was easy to clean up, its the upper part that has me  thinking.

On the head, are the valve guides press fit in place?   More importantly,  how do I get the insert pc of the compression changeover valve out of the head?  I need to extract it to put in a new head I will be buying.
The old book says something about using the engine compression, but this is for removal on a decoke operation, and my engine is in pcs all over tha place.   Any good secondary methods?

Hugh Conway

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Re: Basic questions from a proud new owner?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2015, 06:50:14 PM »
Hello Tx
for the fuel pump, look here; http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Articles/diesel1.htm cut-away dwgs here and information on how th strip and reassemble. I thought  I had a link to other more detailed information, but cannot seem to locate it just now.
As for removing the inner part of the COV, these threads will give you some info; 
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7325.0
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7294.0
The final post from that thread is:
"Tried all the suggestions to remove the "main plug" without success. The recommended wooden plug method, drilling and threading to use a bolt as puller, heating. All did not work, the plug was stuck tight.
Eventually I pulled the head, took it to a machine shop and had it carefully cut out. Made a couple of cuts and collapsed the plug. It was apparently just really stuck with accumulated carbon.
The proper main plug and COV fit right in. Re-installed the head and fired it up."
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
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