Good project or worthless lawn ornament?

[swordfish]

Hi All,

I'm new to these forums and am very keen to get myself a lister to restore, and perhaps even run a generator from. I'm very glad to meet some like minded people!

I have an opportunity the buy the lister shown here: http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_itemId=13651, and I'm interested to know what you think.

I could probably get it for $AU 200. To put that into perspective I can buy some restored/runners for $1500 - $2000.

What are your thoughts on whether or not this would be a good purchase? Do you think the internals might be OK?  I know that not much can be inferred from the photos but they are all I have to go on before I drive 100km to go inspect it. I can see that it is missing the rocker gear and the outside badly needs some TLC. One good thing is that the valves, if present, are probably closed due to the missing rocker gear so the bore and piston may be OK. One has to wonder why the push rods were removed from this engine - perhaps it has something more seriously wrong with its insides.

The owner has no previous history about when it was last running and says it has been getting used as a lawn ornament for years. I'm guessing it's probably still full of oil so the internals might be OK.

I'm tempted to ask the owner if it is seized but I don't want him trying too hard to make it move if the bore is rusted.

All in all, I know you can't tell much from a few photos but I'm interested to know what your "gut feel" is? How much trouble would I have sourcing the missing and/or damaged parts if I were to go ahead? In the worst case scenario, is it worth spending $200 just to get a few good castings and flywheels? Any thoughts?

I look forward to your advice!

Greg.

[mygoggie]

In my opinion you will be restoring this engine for two reasons. To enjoy yourself and to bring an old faithfull engine back to life. You cannot put a value to that.

The rust is nothing. 48h in an electrolysis bath will have the parts as fully restored with no effort on your side.

The missing push rods and rockers - I am sure someone will steer you where to find replacements. I am also looking for quality push rods, so if you find a source PM me!

Gaskets - I am cutting all my own from copper and paper after I have made CAD files of these.

If I were you? Make the guy an offer of less than $AU and see where it leads.

[swordfish]

Good point... I think I'll end up buying it if I can.

Electrolysis treatment looks good!

Also, can anyone tell what model it is from the photos?

Many thanks,

Greg.

[dieselgman]

Looks like a 6/1 but could be earlier 3 1/2 or 5 version. The serial number will tell the tale. In most parts of the world that set of castings would be considered a steal at $200. Everyone I know would buy it in a heartbeat!

Original parts are quite scarce for these, but you can rebuild using Indian parts if you are careful and selective.

dieselgman

[Hugh Conway]

As Gary says, the castings alone.......
A good  soaking with penetrating oil before applying a lot of torque to fasteners will go a long way....weeks.
If you're into it, can be a fun and rewarding project.
Cheers,
Hugh

[rmchambers]

Missing pushrods and rockers the valves (if they are present) should be closed.  They may be rusted but hopefully have kept water out of the bore.  Either way it will be an interesting project for you!

[contaucreek]

My 6/1 was a lawn ornament before I bought it. Came with an 8/1 SOM cast base.

[swordfish]

Thanks guys, you've convinced me! I'll check it out this weekend and hopefully make an offer, especially if it turns out to be a CS 1/6.

What serial number am I looking for to identify the HP? I'm not familiar with the Lister numbering scheme but imagine it's fairly obviously labelled?

Many thanks,

Greg.

[bloomers359]

All the CS's I have came across with a crank case brether like the one in your pictures with no upward bend have dated from the war years 1939 - 1945 as far as I know that was to save metel that was one place they could do that without altering the operation of the engine..

[mygoggie]

Well the engine can be a 3/1, 5/1 or 6/1. From the pics, not easy to ID. The serial number will tell you. Here is a three page guide -

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating.htm
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating5.htm
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating6.htm

"Yours" should fall under the pre 1951 dating.

BTW - I have looked into this supplier and so far feedback was that the quality of parts is good. http://www.agraeng.com/product3.aspx?CID=5&SID=64&TID=1021

All the best with your offer!

[Hugh Conway]

@ mygoggie:
Re the parts supplier "agraeng". I wrote to them a few months back. They emailed a nice catalogue specifically for 6/1,8/1 and related twins. They list just about everything. I wrote again with an order and got no reply. After another email, copying several contacts, I got a reply telling me that they only sell  in quantity to re-sellers. DEV Engineering (also in India) seems to have disappeared. Shipping costs India to Canada are now quite high BTW.

I have had really  good luck with getting all the required parts from these three sources:
Jim Calder of justliveoffgrid.com, in Canada, where I am.
Gary (dieselgman on this site) in the U.S.A. (the current USD vs CAD exchange rate hurts right now!)
SEP (stationaryengineparts.com) Their shipments seem to arrive faster than those from the U.S., or even from the other side of Canada.
Gary and Jim especially will go out of their way to get you the right parts. They are my go-to sources now, I don't bother with the Indian sources any more.
Cheers,
Hugh

[swordfish]

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating.htm
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating5.htm
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating6.htm

What an amazing site, not just the part numbers but the general Lister info it has in the other sections. There's some really useful info in there about parts interchange, etc. Thanks for sharing.

Still not sure how I'll tell the HP from the serial number though, the guide only seems to allow for dating...any tips here? Does it actually say CS 6/1 somewhere or anything? I'm really keen to get a 6HP version as I actually intend to run a generator with it eventually.

EDIT: I just spoke to the owner and he's fairly sure it's a 3HP. Although I need to confirm this, if it proves to be true it won't suit my generator idea. So I need to decide whether it's worth it as a simple stand alone restoration project. Hmm...

Thanks for the help everyone!

[dieselgman]

You can still use the crankcase, flywheels (if they are fitted to the 2" crank) and assorted other hardware from the 3/1 to build up a 6/1. You will need to change out the crankshaft, connecting rod, piston, cylinder, and head.
Some of the ID tags noted horsepower in addition to the serial numbers identifying date of manufacture... lacking that, you can inspect bore diameter, crankshaft diameter. Pull the crankcase door to see the internals.



dieselgman

[mygoggie]

@ mygoggie:
Re the parts supplier "agraeng". I got a reply telling me that they only sell  in quantity to re-sellers.

Thanks for the feedback Hugh. Problem is I stay in the most southern city in Africa which makes us actually living the furthest distance possible (on this earth) apart.  You complain about forex rates? Man, you must see what we must go through thanks to our government. Anyhow .... Listers are popular in SA, so I have been asking around and met an old gentleman who spent his whole life working on Listers. Let's see what he can offer me.