Author Topic: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project  (Read 88460 times)

32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #180 on: January 13, 2016, 10:21:41 PM »


Good deal Bruce !  Looks like you're geting close now.



Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
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buickanddeere

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #181 on: January 14, 2016, 03:18:30 PM »
A wide band O2 sensor in the exhaust would remove all doubt about air/fuel ratios.

BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #182 on: January 15, 2016, 03:27:57 AM »
Thanks B&D.  Carbon monoxide measurement is what IMPCO recommends for fuel mixture adjustment of propane engines.  I'd love to have it for this project, but it's not in my budget; this is a one-off volunteer project. 

I was wiped out today from yesterday's efforts but Jeff and I did do a test run with the newly spike protected timing/dwell board.  We got a stable, no missing, output to the GM ignition/coil unit,  but spark was missing occasionally at full load & temp (inductive pickup spark timing light misses).  I increased dwell from 3 to 4 msec while it was running and the missing stopped.   We are also now running with no intake restriction at all, and have adjusted the carb for a lean mix but will have to see how that goes for cold starts.     

Storm front moving in so I may take a shop cleanup day tomorrow.








BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #183 on: January 21, 2016, 02:37:30 AM »
The DES 8/1 Propane Conversion is now in service, doing real work.  We have some details to work on still, such as air cleaner and remote start, but after adding the Delphi GN10119 integrated spark/coil unit, and increasing dwell to 5 milliseconds, our problems of missing at full load and temperature are over.  The last two days it has been supporting some construction work and welding (mostly generator, some compressed air).  I took some videos late today and will upload them for your viewing pleasure.  I also have stills to shrink and upload for those with low bandwidth internet access.

I especially want to thank Gary at Diesel Electric Services for his outstanding support for this project.  His parts, knowledge and a loaner CA110 has made all the difference for power and reliability and made our project a success.

Intro video:
https://youtu.be/ol39s0ngv2U

Starting the engine:
https://youtu.be/xky2tpeHwJY

Earth Muffler:
https://youtu.be/sMu5VRA8GLM

Engine Balance
https://youtu.be/yyA9mlpyerQ


« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 03:09:08 AM by BruceM »

Tom

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #184 on: January 21, 2016, 05:24:01 AM »
Very nice! Lots of great engineering there.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #185 on: January 21, 2016, 07:03:13 AM »
Thanks Tom.  Yep, a lot of hours on this project.  It broke my heart to not do another induced draft (via exhaust) cooling system, but I'm very happy about the earth muffler, and the thermosiphon radiator plus thermal chimney cooling system seems to be working like a champ.

dieselgman

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #186 on: January 21, 2016, 01:57:28 PM »
Excellent work and good documentation! This will hopefully serve to enlighten and encourage further development along the lines of alternative fuels and truly shows what dogged determination and intelligence can accomplish!  ;)

Well done!

dieselgman
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buickanddeere

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #187 on: January 21, 2016, 04:01:00 PM »
Here is an article to retrofit  common off the shelf automotive electronic ignition systems onto any engine .http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/ignition.htm

BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #188 on: January 21, 2016, 05:41:08 PM »
Thanks dieselgman.  We couldn't have done this without your help!

B&D- great article, very comprehensive.  

Some thoughts about sparking the DES 8/1 on propane:

After some struggling due to my own inexperience with spark systems, I decided to use the venerable GM L2 system (Delphi GN10119 or UF262T), as it integrates both coil and spark module, which only leaves me with a simple 555 circuit to trigger it with a +5V dwell pulse and we have a powerful, state of the art spark system.  I was surprised that with propane, under heavy loads and full temperature, such a hot spark was needed.

Here's a nice write up on the GM L2 coil near plug units and the pinout to drive it:

http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm

We also switched to a VERY long spark plug, the NGK LFR4A-E.  It gets the tip down near the "smiley" mouth of the indirect injection cavity.  This seems to help.  

Spark timing seems non-critical,  around the normal IP injection timing or a little before works well at 810 rpm.  

Fixed timing is adequate for starting, no retarding needed.

We had to go to magnet on the flywheel for a more stable spark timing; the hall effect sensor trip point was too variable with the IP cam follower magnet alone.  So I use the IP hall effect switch set to turn on early-late to enable the flywheel sensor.  A wasted spark system does work fine, also.   I'll post a schematic for the spark/dwell circuit when I get it drawn up properly.  It is presently still in my own shorthand/hen scratch.  







« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 05:48:24 PM by BruceM »

32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #189 on: January 21, 2016, 11:19:52 PM »


Good job !

It has been an interesting project. Thanks for posting.

Gary





Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

Tom

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #190 on: January 22, 2016, 12:36:35 AM »
Bruce, what would guess is the CR that engine is running now.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #191 on: January 22, 2016, 02:18:15 AM »
Hi Tom,
I haven't recalculated the CR with 0.510 of shim under the cylinder.  We just kept adding until the knock at full load went away, we had the head and cylinder off 8 times.  Every time we lowered compression, we also got more power.  It is now noticeably more powerful than my diesel 6/1.  

Edit- just reran the figures and it seems we are pretty close to CR of 10:1 now.   I suspect that the propane we're getting delivered to Jeff's tank must have a fair amount of butane and other gasses.  I was very surprised that we had to keep adding more spacers to get rid of the knock...as last summer on a different source of propane the CR was 13.5:1 with a modest knock under load.

I just wanted to also thank you, Tom, for your early "right on the mark", insightful comments on spark and higher compression requiring more energy, per your own car story.  This ended up being just the situation here, along with a host of other confounding issues.  

Gary, Thanks, and special thanks for the offset idler bolt for this engine.  

Best Wishes,
Bruce







« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 05:46:40 AM by BruceM »

veggie

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #192 on: January 30, 2016, 01:28:01 AM »

Bruce,

Watched your vids.
Man....you did a really nice job with that propane listeroid !

WELL DONE !

Nice to see it running after all the work you have had to put in.

Cheers,
veggie
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BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #193 on: January 30, 2016, 03:18:08 AM »
Thanks Veggie.  We're still working on details, but it does seem to be working out nicely. 

M61hops

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Re: DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« Reply #194 on: January 30, 2016, 09:56:00 AM »
Fantastic job on everything!  Thanks for sharing!  I'd like to convert a Changfa 175A to propane and now you've got me thinking I might have trouble getting the charge to light off consistently because I was going to replace the injector with a sparkplug at the end of a chamber in the injector hole.  It might be a bigger challenge than I was figuring between the spark and fuel mixture problems.  The 175A is just too loud as a diesel for me to use and there are no small water cooled engines that I know of in the USA.  I dream of a small CHP system for a travel trailer!   Leland
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