Author Topic: Protection and control revissited  (Read 24773 times)

dieselgman

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2007, 04:05:42 AM »
Bob,

I am also in the process of getting some diesel control and instrumentation panels of various types imported for our systems. If you would have an interest in something along these lines I can include your specs in our request. Pricing is looking very good, quantity may become an issue though.

Gary
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jtodd

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2007, 07:51:53 AM »
I found a line of Crompton computerized systems that were specifically designed for generator operation.  They seem too good to be true, and pretty much measure/manage everything under the sun.  I think that they're shiny and neat, but perhaps overkill for a Listeroid and also possibly too complex for the application for most Lister-based gensets... but we'll see what the price is.

Go to this URL:  http://www.crompton-instruments.com/genset.html  and then on the right hand side of the screen select "Gen-Set controllers" from the pull-down menu.  (Terrible design.)  That will get you a big PDF file of all their generator control sets, which are VERY comprehensive and full-featured.  I have asked for pricing on the "top of the line" unit (GEN-TRANS-EN/L) which seems to bundle all the possible components into a single panel, and I'm preparing the defibrilator for when I receive the quote.   There is also a software package (GEN-SOFT) which allows monitoring of all the measurements over time, which is really interesting to me.  If I can reverse-engineer the RS-232 protocol on the serial port, I could possibly write my own shims to turn output from the GEN-TRANS into SNMP-compliant values for monitoring via other systems that I already have in place.

Putting all my eggs in one basket goes against my "KISS" principle, but those panels would save me days of debugging and dozens of components. Plus, it's not an analog system which would be much more robust than a computer-controlled platform like the GEN-TRANS product lines.  However, I'm sure I can put some shunts in for emergency operation, and I plan to have the whole panel wired up with quick-release bulkhead attachments, and so maybe I'll make a computer-controlled head unit and a more crude analog relay-controlled unit with the same quick-connect mount.

They provide transfer switch control and generator starting, as well, which is interesting since I'll have at least the auto-start on my system (and yes, they detect start failures and can cycle through various start options.)  As I said, it's too good to be true, so I'm not getting my heart set on it.

I'll post here what the pricing is for the various possible devices.

JT


This control computer from Crompton arrived in the mail late last week.  I'm pretty much stunned.   This has every feature I had thought of, and a few more.  For $375 USD for the unit, plus $41 USD for the PC-based software (not needed, but handy) the GEN-TRANS-EN/L by Crompton is a dream for generator control.  Transfer switch control, starters, pre-heaters, various sensors, gauges, and level indicators, display on a bitmapped LCD backlit panel with lots of shiny buttons.  Very, very fancy.   Built in Turkey, designed by people who probably speak German as a first language, by a company based in England, who is owned by Tyco, resold through a distributor in Illinois.  Three continents, four or so nations.  Whew.

The list of features is very long, so I won't bore anyone with the full rundown.  However, this is a very nice panel.  As much as I don't like computers in the path of my power and I am very unimpressed with blinkylights, I will admit this will remove a few hundred hours of ugly soldering to relays and lights and probably will do a more reliable job than my make-it-as-you-go electrical control wiring (though I'll have "emergency run" shunts to give convenient manual workarounds if the computer tosses it's cookies.)  Plus, after looking at the prices of nice gauges that had any kind of monitoring/shutdown capability, this system is much cheaper than those methods especially when you consider things like hysteresis/flap management.  I like big fat analog gauges as much as the next person, but those are only useful if I'm sitting in front of them and watching them, which hopefully will not be my primary job when the generator is running, except when I just want to listen to the engine.

The only shortcoming that I can see is that there are a limited number of inputs and outputs on the system, and they should have had a bunch more - you can only have 6 configurable inputs  from a list of 21 possible conditions (not including the large number of "standard" inputs which have their own dedicated input lines like: rpm, fuel level, voltages/amperages on mains/DCalt/ACgenerator, oil pressure, temp, emerg stop button) and only 4 configurable outputs (pre-heater, horn, etc) from a list of 83 possible output indications/controls.  Still, I can't think of many things I couldn't do with this, even if I had to make some basic control circuits and systems external to the computer control.

I bought mine from the really helpful folks at K-Tech, Inc. (orders@k-tech.com)  Please pester me for questions, since they don't have a lot of direct experience with the unit and Crompton can't be giving them much margin at those prices.  I've got the manuals and device in-hand, and I'm open for questions.   It'll be two months or so before I'm actually wiring the thing up, but I've gone through the manual and figured most of what I need out already.

JT

trigzy

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2007, 01:21:03 AM »
My Struggle for panel meters is still moving, but rather slowly.  (Dont want the Chinese to think I'm too eager, they'll just bump up the price.)  I'll get around to mailing the other guys to compare notes early next week.  The company I'm dealing with carries only electrical guages, so dont wait on me for oil, temp etc guages.  I was just planning on some nice automotive units with the electrical sending units (to save on piping & possible damage from oil pulses) for the engine controls.

Looks like I might also be able to get some gagues that will directly read kW, KVA, KVAR, pF which will entertain me and my fellow nerds to no end.

Steve
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mobile_bob

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2007, 02:30:13 AM »
this is a timely post
i was looking just this morning for this thread, and couldnt remember where it was at

i am interested in what you can get, i am interested in all sorts of guages
let me know what is available and priceing if possible

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

blhfla

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2007, 10:05:32 PM »
Quote
I found a line of Crompton computerized systems that were specifically designed for generator operation.  They seem too good to be true, and pretty much measure/manage everything under the sun.  I think that they're shiny and neat, but perhaps overkill for a Listeroid and also possibly too complex for the application for most Lister-based gensets... but we'll see what the price is.

Go to this URL:  http://www.crompton-instruments.com/genset.html  and then on the right hand side of the screen select "Gen-Set controllers" from the pull-down menu.  (Terrible design.)  That will get you a big PDF file of all their generator control sets, which are VERY comprehensive and full-featured.  I have asked for pricing on the "top of the line" unit (GEN-TRANS-EN/L) which seems to bundle all the possible components into a single panel, and I'm preparing the defibrilator for when I receive the quote.   There is also a software package (GEN-SOFT) which allows monitoring of all the measurements over time, which is really interesting to me.  If I can reverse-engineer the RS-232 protocol on the serial port, I could possibly write my own shims to turn output from the GEN-TRANS into SNMP-compliant values for monitoring via other systems that I already have in place.

This control computer from Crompton arrived in the mail late last week.  I'm pretty much stunned.   This has every feature I had thought of, and a few more.  For $375 USD for the unit, plus $41 USD for the PC-based software (not needed, but handy) the GEN-TRANS-EN/L by Crompton is a dream for generator control.  Transfer switch control, starters, pre-heaters, various sensors, gauges, and level indicators, display on a bitmapped LCD backlit panel with lots of shiny buttons.  Very, very fancy.   Built in Turkey, designed by people who probably speak German as a first language, by a company based in England, who is owned by Tyco, resold through a distributor in Illinois.  Three continents, four or so nations.  Whew.

So, JT, I suppose you could use the RS232 port to connect to a PC (or laptop) with wireless internet and "call home" when an alert trips, like the way EMC does for its multimillion dollar disk storage arrays? That way unattended operation could be monitored at least via event notifications, if not via realtime monitoring as well. Do you know if they have realtime monitoring capability in their software, like for a NOC application?


jtodd

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2007, 10:59:32 PM »
So, JT, I suppose you could use the RS232 port to connect to a PC (or laptop) with wireless internet and "call home" when an alert trips, like the way EMC does for its multimillion dollar disk storage arrays? That way unattended operation could be monitored at least via event notifications, if not via realtime monitoring as well. Do you know if they have realtime monitoring capability in their software, like for a NOC application?

It appears the answer is "No" initially.  It doesn't appear to have any hooks for external programs to extract information from the software.  Hoewver, it IS just an RS-232 interface, and I'm sure it is some reasonably reverse-engineerable protocol that I could intercept and then pipe to a little SBC or just send wholesale over one of the many RS-232-to-Ethernet socket converters on the market and then post-process on some bigger machine elsewhere on the network.  I haven't even powered the thing up yet; my other activities have really sucked time away from experimenting with the computer control system, since I'm trying to finalize the physical layout of the genset and various large components first.  It'll probably be May or June before I have meaningful results from the Crompton as to what I can see on the serial port at this rate (very few hours per weekend to work on it these days, and I blew some vacation driving my new Lister 16/2 from Phoenix.)

The device,  however, has a completely undocumented CANBUS interface on the side, but I don't know how to get meaningful data out of that and translate it into SNMP or whatever, though I haven't really looked yet - I don't know what sub-protocol is used on the CANBUS interface, or if it's even live at all.

JT

blhfla

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2007, 04:42:14 PM »
I guess if one couldn't trap events directly from the software, it might still be possible to remotely capture the display of a laptop connected to the RS232 port running the software displaying the status, through a remote access utility such as PCAnywhere, etc. Not very efficient nor even practical perhaps, but maybe possible. Too bad they don't have a Linux compatible version, but I guess it could be run in a WINE instance.

Tom

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2007, 07:05:49 PM »
You can use a product called a Long Link to connect the RS232 to a laptop located in the house for remote monitoring. The Long Link uses standard phone wire. Just poll the port and save any "events" to a log file. I have not used a long link in a long time, but... will I just check and a long link is now very hard to find. However one of these look good

http://www.dpie.com/pcbus/airbournedirect.html
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

blhfla

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2007, 10:14:41 PM »
Perhaps I should explain my situation. I need to monitor the genset controller status from potentially hundreds of mile away. The only ways I can think of is to either run the controller software on a laptop (or PC) directly connected through the serial interface to the controller and access the laptop (and its display) through something like PCAnywhere (24 hours/day - not very practical) via a wifi modem to a cell phone (or an embedded wireless WAN device) connected to the internet , OR send the serial signals (events) to a laptop serial port that can be forwarded via an RS232 to TCP/IP convertor (such as Taltech's TCP-Com) over the laptop's wireless internet connection to the remote computer's IP address with the RS232 to TCP/IP convertor on the remote computer converting the signal back to a Virtual COM port (serial) which the genset controller software (on the same remote computer) can then monitor.

There will be no power (except for that being supplied by the genset) nor landlines available. I don't know if there is another way to do it.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 11:11:02 PM by blhfla »

jtodd

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2007, 10:44:48 PM »
Perhaps I should explain my situation. I need to monitor the genset controller status from potentially hundreds of mile away. The only ways I can think of is to either run the controller software on a laptop (or PC) directly connected through the serial interface to the controller and access the laptop (and its display) through something like PCAnywhere (24 hours/day - not very practical) via a wifi modem to a cell phone (or an embedded wireless WAN device) connected to the internet , OR send the serial signals (events) to a laptop serial port that can be forwarded via an RS232 to TCP/IP convertor (such as Taltech's TCP-Com) over the laptop's wireless internet connection to the remote computer's IP address with the RS232 to TCP/IP convertor on the remote computer converting the signal back to a Virtual COM port (serial) which the genset controller software (on the same remote computer) can then monitor. I don't know if there is another way to do it.

I think the RS-232 to TCP/IP converter would work fine as the method to use, at least with the Crompton system I have.  However, I don't think any "actions" can be taken by the control panel - it can only observe, and set basic configurations.  Things like "manual start" and other control-panel events have to be activated on the panel itself.  (Note: there are 'test runs' that can be scheduled from the software, so maybe that will do the trick for remote starting.)  I'll play with the software maybe this weekend if I have some time to give better information...

In any case, you'd probably want a handful of additional sensors and data, just for safety's sake.  Perhaps a webcam with audio would also make some sense - often there are visual cues that can give you more information than what you see on the gauges.  You could even put up a webcam pointing at a bunch of analog gauges, which is a horribly crude but very effective method of observing secondary (non-critical and unmanaged) system parameters, and it would probably be reasonably cost-effective.

JT

blhfla

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2007, 11:27:57 PM »
Quote
I think the RS-232 to TCP/IP converter would work fine as the method to use, at least with the Crompton system I have.  However, I don't think any "actions" can be taken by the control panel - it can only observe, and set basic configurations.  Things like "manual start" and other control-panel events have to be activated on the panel itself.  (Note: there are 'test runs' that can be scheduled from the software, so maybe that will do the trick for remote starting.) 

Their website info (pdf) indicates:
"View and edit controller settings" as well as "Load and save parameter settings" via the GEN-SOFT software. I wonder if that includes setting the controller to Automatic mode? Would be nice, but it could always be set (and remain) to Auto mode from the panel anyway. Please let us know what you discover; I am very interested in their offerings.

jtodd

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2007, 11:39:01 PM »
Their website info (pdf) indicates:
"View and edit controller settings" as well as "Load and save parameter settings" via the GEN-SOFT software. I wonder if that includes setting the controller to Automatic mode? Would be nice, but it could always be set (and remain) to Auto mode from the panel anyway. Please let us know what you discover; I am very interested in their offerings.

You can set the panel to "auto" mode and then lock the front panel control buttons.  I don't think you can set Automatic mode from the software, but I'll find out shortly.

JT

Tom

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2007, 12:54:05 AM »
It might be fun to make a web page based control panel and run a web server on the laptop.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

rcavictim

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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2007, 01:38:44 AM »
Steve:

It may be better to order some switches for the amp and volt meters. This way the guys can swtich between CTs and save a few bucks on metering.

Doug

Perhaps in the interest of safety I should add to what Doug stated, that most CT`s carry a warning sticker that warns not to allow them to operate with the meter leads disconnected (open circuit) or extremely high voltages of the self-destructuion variety can result.  As usual YMMV.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dualĀ  fuel
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Re: Protection and control revissited
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2007, 02:15:47 AM »
The right switches for the job:

I should have said the correct switch for a Ct shorts the unused CT and puts the one in usew in series with the meter.

A regular selector switch is fine the volt meters.

I'll post some pictures of these types of switches when I have time.

Doug