Head Gasket fabrication

[cujet]

We are having a time with head gaskets, as are many of you.

I would like to consider making or rather having a custom set made. Laser cutting shops could cut the pattern, and I am sure a fire ring can be installed by one of the major manufacturers.

As there are many types of gaskets used today, which style do you think we should consider? MLS, multi layer steel is probably not the best choice, as they would seem unable to deal with surface irregularities and manufacturing defects (such as proud liners). There are other choices, reinforced graphite, O ring, FelPro paper type, etc.

What do you guys think? Has anyone looked into this.

I would prefer not to use the OEM copper/asbestos for obvious reasons, including the health reason.

Chris

[lev-l-lok]

Chris, just go to Smokstak.com and check their vendors, they have several, very good composite gasket makers. I'll be using them for my Fairbanks rebuild.

Paul

[GuyFawkes]

If it was me it wouldn't be any kind of sandwich, but solid copper.

Copper gaskets are easy enough to make, if you have gasket problems and a head pull anyway, make a copper one and see how it goes, don't forget the annealing tho... did a thread some weeks ago about how to make one DIY...

[cujet]

Guy, I have plenty of experience with copper head gaskets. We tried them on turbo engines in the late '70's and early '80's. They would seal combustion pressures fairly well, but always leaked water. We tried copper coat spray, RTV rings around water passages, red gasket spray (the best) and everything else I could think of. Nothing solved the problem. We eventually went to composite head gaskets made of steel reinforced graphite and stainless "O" rings installed in the block. That worked.

My understanding is that the head and block move a tiny bit during heat cycles. This works the gasket sealing systems.

Chris

[GuyFawkes]

Guy, I have plenty of experience with copper head gaskets. We tried them on turbo engines in the late '70's and early '80's. They would seal combustion pressures fairly well, but always leaked water. We tried copper coat spray, RTV rings around water passages, red gasket spray (the best) and everything else I could think of. Nothing solved the problem. We eventually went to composite head gaskets made of steel reinforced graphite and stainless "O" rings installed in the block. That worked.

My understanding is that the head and block move a tiny bit during heat cycles. This works the gasket sealing systems.

Chris

I wouldn't use a solid copper gasket on my 4 pot 1900cc diesel car, or my 2 pot 1000cc bike, but I would and have on things like and including listers.

As far as I know a copper gasket we made for the pumphouse lister in cornwall in 1984ish is still running strong, leastways it lasted two years to my knowledge, and saw the set running last year, new owners, and as far as they knew nothing bar oil changes had ever been done to that engine.

[Julian]

I once helped a guy rebuild a Lister JP3 marine engine.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/JPstart.htm

I said re-use the old copper asbestos head gaskets because new gaskets where now made from unobtainium, however he set out to make new ones from solid copper sheet. Several days later 3 beautifully made gaskets appeared, freshly annealed and ready to fit. The heads bolts were torqued down and  the engine started up. Well, the engine ran sweetly enough, but water pissed out of every gasket, after stopping the engine the thing hydraulic locked with water on top of a piston, so, heads back off, old gaskets on and no further trouble!

I think the problem with solid copper is that it has no give in it, ie it won't compress at all to take up surface irregularities.

[GuyFawkes]

I think the problem with solid copper is that it has no give in it, ie it won't compress at all to take up surface irregularities.

that's not a "problem", that's a "feature"

Skim the head and barrel, do the job properly....  I want to piss razors every time I see or hear people using plastic metal, gasket goo, and other bodges in preference to simply ensuring that the mating surfaces actually mate.

[jimmer]

I think the problem with solid copper is that it has no give in it, ie it won't compress at all to take up surface irregularities.

that's not a "problem", that's a "feature"

Skim the head and barrel, do the job properly....  I want to piss razors every time I see or hear people using plastic metal, gasket goo, and other bodges in preference to simply ensuring that the mating surfaces actually mate.

Too bad the workers who assembled my BSA Lightning back in the '60s could not ensure that the mating surfaces actually mate.

What a leaker!

jim

[mobile_bob]

another consideration may be to the fact that engine especially diesels
have heads that creep, not only during expansion/contraction, heating cycles but
from the forces of vibration

many engines use dowels to locate the heads, perhaps the lister/oids might benfit from
a couple of dowels between the head and cylinder.

my bet is they walk around alot more than one would think, and if so, they are going to
be a bear to seal up.

once dowel pins are fitted, a bit of coolant block seal would finish off the leaks.

i assume the lister/oids don't use dowels, yes/no?

bob g

[BruceM]

No dowels on the head of my Metro 6/1, and given that it uses a stock generic head gasket, I don't think any do.

The cylinder liner on my Metro is substantially proud of the cylinder top face. Maybe 1/32" .  Is this noted in other machines out there? I wonder what this critical dimension is supposed to be. 

Bruce M

[mobile_bob]

probably in the neighborhood of .006" - .008" protrusion would be very close i would expect
based on other sleeved engines of similar bore, i would expect

bob g

[SHIPCHIEF]

Guy:
I aknowledge that the traditional English Engineer wants to see perfect fitting joints.
The Rolls Merlin was license built by Packard, and had many sealing problems with liners?
Anyway, as I understand it, the Rolls built engines had hand lapped liners, the Packard built units were gasketed? You probably know the story better than I do...
The primary difference in philosophy here is obvious, your Englishness vs our gasketness.
Scott E

[GuyFawkes]

The primary difference in philosophy here is obvious, your Englishness vs our gasketness.
Scott E

there's actually a LOT of truth in that statement, there are many subtle but important differences in attitude to engineering across the pond, classic example is JIC hydraulic pipe thread.

[cujet]

Guy, you are so funny. Certainly, you have a deep appreciation for English engineers. In my line of work, I see the Hawker corporate jet. It is an engineers dream. Where every part fits perfectly, and works forever. In typical Brittish fashon, the landing gear actuation is the most complex linkage I have ever seen. It is full of adjustments, shims, cams, bellcranks, rod ends, bearings, hydraulics, switches, indicators and whatever other mechanical parts the engineers knew of. It truly is a sight to behold!

Gulfstream aircraft (made in America) use a hydraulic ram that locks in place. No other parts are needed.

Both are viable and reliable systems. One certainly took more brain power.

Chris

[ixtow]

Guy, you are so funny. Certainly, you have a deep appreciation for English engineers. In my line of work, I see the Hawker corporate jet. It is an engineers dream. Where every part fits perfectly, and works forever. In typical Brittish fashon, the landing gear actuation is the most complex linkage I have ever seen. It is full of adjustments, shims, cams, bellcranks, rod ends, bearings, hydraulics, switches, indicators and whatever other mechanical parts the engineers knew of. It truly is a sight to behold!

Gulfstream aircraft (made in America) use a hydraulic ram that locks in place. No other parts are needed.

Both are viable and reliable systems. One certainly took more brain power.

Chris

Just because one can do a thing...

If it's stupid, and works; it isn't stupid.

Ironic how the Lister was engineerd by the English, but is a picture of simplicity and bigger-hammer thinking.  Overbuilt, but not overcomplicated.

How do you think the Indians would handle Landing Gear?  Large Stone Tablet and Duct Tape?

My point being, the English Engineering of today could not be copied by a 3rd World Industrial Complex.  Things have changed a lot in 50 years.  Seems the Hawker Gear you speak of reminds me more of Germans than the English...  (I am sooooo gonna get it for that one..... :-P )  Look under the hood of a 70's Mercedes.  Compare it to an 80's Isuzu (like my C223 Diesel).  There's 3x as much crap under the hood of the Mercedes, yet after 300,000 miles, my Isuzu is still running as good as it did when it was new.  Both are rather gasketed...

It doesn't have to be complicated to be reliable and effective.  But one sure has less crap to go wrong, thusly costs a lot less to buy and maintain.  I don't see overcomplicating a system as an indicator of more brainpower.