Seized up Newbie

[BC Fred]

Thanks to whoever has admitted me to this august assemblage!

I recently acquired a Golden Hind 31, built in the UK in 1976, with what I presume is the original Lister water cooled SW2M. It was reported to be running in 2003. So (maybe) it's seized from sitting. I pulled the injectors and poured red ATF down the holes. After a week of soak, there is still no motion when I stand on the crank.

General comments and advice appreciated. When giving advice, be aware that in Canada we have very limited access to explosives.

Questions;

Can this engine be disassembled from the top, one cylinder at a time, right down to the pan? I have a parts book that makes it look as if this might be so.

Are rings, bearings, and gaskets available? Links?

Do parts from Listeriod engines fit Lister engines?

Is the SW2M a sleeve engine, or is the bore part of the cylinder casting?

With the rocker cover off, I can peer down next to the cylinders into a small, dark lake. It that the crank case? It it normal for that area to be open?

That should be enough information for me to attempt to absorb at once.

Thanks!
BC Fred
Victoria BC
Gabriola Island BC

 

[bschwartz]

Fred,

Welcome aboard.

....."Do parts from Listeriod engines fit Lister engines? "

The term "Listeroid" typically refers to a copy of the Lister CS engines.  They are typically available in single cylinder versions of 6,8,10,12 HP, and twins of 12,16,20,24 hp.  There have been some others in there as well.

Your SW2M is a two cylinder Lister/Petter engine, and bears no real similarities to the CS engines.  In short, the Listeroid parts won't fit your engine.

[millman56]

 Ahoy Fred,    remove the electric starter, this will allow you to insert the slim end of a pry bar and lever against the bell housing apperture and on the starter ring teeth, do this in both directions and with luck it will start to move,   if it does,  keep rocking it back and forth, patience is paramount as is care not to rip a tooth off the ring gear although these are incredibly tough.
If its as I assume, the starting shaft is geared up 2:1 so you won`t acheive much standing on the handle.
The void into which you peer at the small dark lake ( is this the first line of a poem ?)  may be the injector pump/pushrods housing.

Mark.

[dieselgman]

Much patience is required for your situation... do not get in a hurry or you might destroy an otherwise serviceable part. Parts for the SW2 are getting scarce but many are still stocked such as pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets. We can supply.

How to dismantle? Top down is the normal procedure. You are going about it right by first soaking in solvent. You might start by pulling the cylinder heads to get a good look at the bores. Depending on crankshaft position, you may find that you can reach the connecting rod bolts without rotation of the crank ( a few special tools may be necessary for this) ... in some cases we have been able to pull the pistons/cylinders/rods all as one piece. These are not sleeved cylinders but they can be bored. We can still get you pistons cylinders and heads for the SW if yours are found to be damaged beyond repair.

dieselgman

[carlb23]

I have found that a mix of 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone works great as a penetrating fluid.  Highly flammable though.

[mobile_bob]

remember the universal solvent?  water!

water will soften rust when nothing else will,  simply mix a few drops of dishwashing detergent in a quart of water, (dawn dish soap works fine) it will lower the surface tension of the water allowing it to get down in places it can't otherwise and in a very short time the rust will soften and the engine will turn over.

i learned this trick from an old salvage yard guy years ago, and have used it exclusively every since.

the problem with rust is it expands, and as such makes for a very tight fitting piston to bore interface.

give it a try, you will be surprised how well it works,  even very badly stuck pistons usually will come lose in a day using this method.

bob g

[millman56]

Or you could try phosphoric acid, the stuff in Coca Cola that makes your teeth squeaky, this actually dissolves rust.

Mark.

[Bottleveg]

remember the universal solvent?  water!

water will soften rust when nothing else will,  simply mix a few drops of dishwashing detergent in a quart of water, (dawn dish soap works fine) it will lower the surface tension of the water allowing it to get down in places it can't otherwise and in a very short time the rust will soften and the engine will turn over.

i learned this trick from an old salvage yard guy years ago, and have used it exclusively every since.

the problem with rust is it expands, and as such makes for a very tight fitting piston to bore interface.

give it a try, you will be surprised how well it works,  even very badly stuck pistons usually will come lose in a day using this method.

bob g

I wonder if this method would be improved if the water was initially hot?
   Mark.

[dieselgman]

The whole trick is getting sufficient penetration with ANY solvent type... we have seen some cases where heat applied to the cylinder did the trick (expansion), but if it is stuck from long-term corrosion and any substantial break-down of the aluminum (or iron) in the piston, they can be permanently welded together. The extremes happen only rarely where there has been substantial water sitting in the bore for years. We have managed to save the connecting rods by placing the assembly in a hydraulic press, and in the extreme, by breaking the cylinder off the piston. The Listers, (especially air-cooled varieties), seem to be quite good at collecting water down the manifolds if left in the weather.

The universal solvent (water) does not work in these kinds of cases.

dieselgman

[BC Fred]

Thanks All!

 I understand about the Listeriods. Not like this model. Thanks.

Great suggestions. Red ATF is my first choice of penetrant, often thinned with a bit of diesel. (in some cultures red is good luck. Not a bad thing if you have a seized engine).

I've had the good luck (with red ATF) to free up a few engines, outboards and small diesels, and get them running, after a solvent rinse to get the chunks out. None seized quite as solid as this one.

Water is an interesting suggestion. I'll try it if it get the heads off. Don't want to put water in the bore and leave it for a week.

The Lister looks and feels like a good engine. Not a lightweight, high speed machine. It's been with the boat since new in 1976, across the Atlantic, through Panama, out to Hawaii, around Vancouver Island, and up and down the West Coast. It would be nice if it can be resurrected.

The top end looks pretty good under the valve covers. I can depress the valves that are not in play, and the push rods look good.

Patience plus penetrant, heat, and careful brute force? The boat is on the hard, with electricity available, so I'll try a heat gun, just to warm it up and thin the ATF.

I think next step is to pull the starter, which looks like it needs attention anyway, and try the pry bar on the ring gear. If I find no joy there, I'll pull the heads and see what I can see. With the heads off, I can try various combinations of solvents and heat. I'll stay away from acetone for now, for both short and long term health reasons. Maybe some 99% alcohol in the ATF?

It's nice to know that a thump with a hammer on a wood block on the piston is OK if I take the heads off.

If I need to buy a piston or a cylinder, how much do they cost?

Many Thanks! I have some things to try. The boat is 100 km from home, so it will probably be a week or so.

Fred

[Bison]

I have had good luck with pouring coca cola down the spark plug holes in a 4 cyl with all the  pistons rusted stuck in the bore, the rust foamed right out, did that every day over the course of a week before it broke free.
This engine had been sitting for years in a fence row without a cap on the smoke stack