cold weather starting question

[carlb23]

Jordan  Pushing down on the crank handle works great to spin up, but unless you are young and large, you will still run into issues getting enough RPM in the wheels where the stored kinetic energy will be high enough to carry you thru the compression stroke unassisted. This is especially true on a new/fresh engine.  This only gets worse with the cold!  To start these beasts as easy as possible, even when warm, you need to shift to pulling up hard on the handle as soon as you drop the compression release.  Since you will most likely be disengaging the compression release while the exhaust valve is open, which happens on an upward pull of the handle. The next downward stroke of the handle is the intake stroke, and the the hard upward pull only needs to be accomplished on the next upward revolution of the handle.  It is a sutle timing thing which you will pick up pretty quickly once you start trying to start yours.  Look on youtube and wach some being started, and you will probably see what I am talking about since you now know what to look for.  The old guys make it look easy, only cranking it up to a moderate speed, but giving one really hard pull after releasing the compression to get that first fire...  

With cold bearings and belts, the speed will slow to a point that even a good strong last upward pull won't get it thru compression.  You need to warm the bearings to get up to a speed to be able to pull thru by hand.  A little heat applied to the bearing carriers and generator end plates makes a huge difference in cranking ease.  I use alcohol and propane torch to warm these points, but it has to be done gently and takes time for the heat to penetrate to the bearings without cracking/damaging anything or cooking the crank seals.  That is where the electric pony starter really shines.  It's near constant crank force more easilly overcomes the drag of cold parts and cold muscle:)    

You said it much more descriptively then I, and gave a much better mental picture of method that i used before i got my air starter hooked up.

[overbore]

There has been plenty of discussion and several references to various intake preheaters here... Ford makes a very nice little 12volt unit with diesel fuel feed (less than $50 I think)- Lister makes a full electric 12v unit ($85)... many others are readily available.

We stock the aforementioned in our Kansas location.

I will mention that I am fond of the 120vac silicone pad heaters for wintertime preparedness. They come in all shapes and sizes as well as different wattages from about 10 to 150 depending on where you need to place the heat. I use these a lot in Alaska - just glue in place and plug in when the heat is needed... of course 120volt mains power IS required for these types.

dieselgman

One size Lister heater fits all? Doe you unit fit a 10/1 as it was 21 here turkey day.
thx. overbore

[dieselgman]

The Lister intake preheater element will fit nicely in just about any inlet manifold with an inch or two to drill into. These actually were standard equipment on some LP series engines with quite small diameter manifolds. I can get actual measurements and images if you like.

dieselgman

[overbore]

Yes, please; sounds like the tested solution. Thx; overbore

[dieselgman]

I pulled one of the Lister pre-heaters out this afternoon and it appears to be a bit larger than I had remembered... 53mm depth required for it to completely fit perpendicular to a round manifold. The Listeroid manifolds are not that large. This would require an external boss be added to the inlet casting for it to fit properly.



These are normally installed right up close to the cylinder head and the partial port blockage is not an issue... how about that for our porting and polishing theorists?


The Ford tractor heater we have in stock is somewhat smaller in size of depth but quite similar in all other aspects.

dieselgman

[buickanddeere]

Is a coolant heater practical ?

[dieselgman]

Coolant heaters (especially the cylinder block immersion type) are the industry standard way of dealing with "standby" generators and full-time grid power (except for emergency downtime). As far as adaptations for the Lister CS, no frost plugs and no convenient coolant ports, so immersion type could not be easily added to the cylinder block... I would suggest a surface mount silicone heat pad as the easiest and least troublesome method for this particular adaptation. Otherwise you could go with a circulating type coolant heater that would insert into the cooling lines... these are very much power hogs and quite wasteful of input energy though.

dieselgman

[Jordan]

I'm looking at the photo, but can't figure how it's attached to the inlet elbow.
Is there a boss on the other side?

Jordan

[ronmar]

A silocone stick-on pad should work pretty well on a listeroid, it having smooth cylinder wall sides to stick the pad to.  An insulating pad over the heater would direct the heat into the block for a little more effective heat transfer into the cylinder wall.

With the addition of a couple valves to force a tank type heater to thermosiphon thru the block and not thru the radiator, that type heater would also work very well I think. 

All very good when you have the power to keep the engine heated.  IF you don't, you are pretty much stuck with heating the engine via other means.  I have contemplated a propane or alcohol fired tank type heater to preheat the coolant in a few minutes prior to starting.  But it might take a bit more time for that heat to migrate to the bearings.  Then there is still the generator bearings:)

[Schwen]

Having read a few threads it appears there are two broad types of preheating for cold starting these engines in frigid conditions.
1. preheating the whole engine so the cold cylinder walls, head & piston don't chill the compressed air with their coldness and high thermal mass
2. preheating the intake air you're going to compress to such a temperature that even with the chill effect of the cold engine the injected fuel burns anyway

Thinking about 1. I was wondering if the typical location of engines like these for emergency backup power made it worthwhile to try to connect the engine's cooling system into a wood-fired wetback hot water system that I assume you'd also have cranked up in the dead of winter.

Has anyone else considered it or maybe actually does it?

[dieselgman]

Jordan,

That image with the heater inside the manifold was intended to illustrate the profile of the two parts relative to each other... it is not attached in that photo but would require an external boss to allow installation. A slightly smaller heater element than this one would fit the manifold cross-section better.

dieselgman

[Jordan]

Jordan,
... it is not attached in that photo but would require an external boss to allow installation.
dieselgman

Now it makes sense! - thanks.

[mike90045]

....new engine, I'm using 10-40 mineral base oil.....

Yow it's cold.  12F this AM.  The 10-40 is as thick as grease.  I can't get up to cranking speed.  Anyone know if there is a 5-20 diesel oil ?   What would the issue of running something like a motorcycle oil.  Not diesel rated.  I only run in winter, and the crankcase on a 6/1 never really heats up.  Will I have to order oil from the arctic ?

[Tom]

Yeow, that is cold. It was 25f here this AM. I'd try some 5-30 synthetic oil, after you finish breaking it in. Commonly 250 hours is the number quoted for break-in. Until then use a propane weed burner torch to warm it up for starting. OR get that handy, dandy lectric starter thingy hang'in off the side working. That way the DW can start it too. And I just know she's dying to try her hand at it. 

[cujet]

....new engine, I'm using 10-40 mineral base oil.....

Yow it's cold.  12F this AM.  The 10-40 is as thick as grease.  I can't get up to cranking speed.  Anyone know if there is a 5-20 diesel oil ?   What would the issue of running something like a motorcycle oil.  Not diesel rated.  I only run in winter, and the crankcase on a 6/1 never really heats up.  Will I have to order oil from the arctic ?

Any true group IV (PAO) synthetic will remain thinner in cold weather. Many Mobil 1 products now use VISOM, a group III synthetic. While it's a great product, it does not flow as well as a PAO based group IV synthetic in extreme cold conditions. I believe Amsoil still has some PAO based oils along with Royal purple and a few others.

The 0W-40 M1 euro oil may have a diesel rating. And, I believe it's still PAO based.