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Author Topic: Flywheel balancing question  (Read 32924 times)

millman56

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2013, 07:45:28 AM »
You will need to reset the spill timing if you have adjusted the fuel tappet,   just seems a bit strange that the thing would not pump after removing and replacing the flywheels,  sometimes if this type of pump has been stood for a long time, dry  or with the IP plunger raised it sticks in the up position and will not return.   
If you adjust the tappet too much there could be a danger of damage to the pump due to excessive travel.

Mark.

Fairmountvewe

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2013, 11:30:48 PM »
Hi all and to our southern neighbors, hope you had a great Turkey day.  Since my last post, I have confirmed the camshaft timing (as per the excellent video courtesy of 38AC), set the spill timing to as close to 20' BTDC as I could manage and bled the fuel system yet again.  I managed to cobble a temporary stand together out of pressure treated 6X6s, and bolted the whole thing together.  So with all that done, and some oil in the sump, it was time for this.......

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOHqgDUTZFc&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Not quite the result I was hoping for.  So it was off for some lunch, a couple of chores and small jobs for my sweetie, some more reading on here, and......

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhkaSfFMXRk&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Again, not quite the stunning success I was hoping for, but success none the less.  At least it was not some kind of out-of-control jack rabbit which I attribute to the flywheel balancing I went through.  It is still a little bouncy, and I have some ideas, and certainly a more robust stand wont hurt.  So I kept bleeding, restarting, rechecking and finally ended up with this....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R15HKedrJqA&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Note the use of volunteer muscle power, a heat gun and lots of encouragement fluid  ;) Still not where I want to be.  It almost seems like it is missing occasionally.  I have a bicycle computer with cadence function that I think will act as a tach so I can check the speed.  I don't know if it is running fast enough or not.  I also don't know about the injector leak-off line going to the top of the filter, but that seems to be the only way to hook everything up and not have leaks.

All in all, not the Listeroid Nirvana I had been hoping for, but sweet success.  I am okay with that.  Lots more to do, and certainly no shortage of ideas.  Thanks to all for all the help and suggestions. 
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, cooperate, solve equations, analyze a new problem, and pitch manure. Specialization is for insects.

Tom

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2013, 11:46:07 PM »
I bet that cleared all the skeeters out of the barn! Sounds like you're running quite a bit over 650 rpm. Is there rubber hose in the fuel system? It can hold air bubbles, it probably still has air in the system.
Tom
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millman56

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2013, 02:34:01 AM »
It appears to be pretty well balanced, nice one.   Are the injector pumps phased correctly?  I ask this as by the way it runs it looks to me like they may not be,  a quick check would be to lock the racks off at a fast tickover and one at a time knock off the fuel to each cylinder, it will soon be pretty apparent if one side is  out of phase with the other as knocking the fuel off to one will slow the engine down and the other will not,  this can be remedied by ear and eye but using a tachometer is best,  a good speed balance of each cylinder can be achieved by careful adjustment of the connecting bar between the IPs fuel racks.    This method disregards any ropey Indian timing marks but it`s not much use if there are  factors other than out of phase fuelling causing the missfiring.

Mark.

38ac

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2013, 02:37:57 AM »
Hey, that balance is looking pretty nice for a twin, Good job!.  Because of the fuel line routing over to that #2 cylinder getting it free of air can be a PTIA especially with no load on the engine. Best luck I have had is to pull the pin on the governor linkage so you can run the engine on #2 only, The shut #1 down with the lever but keep the engine running by manipulating the rack on #2. Leave #1 under compression so you have some load. Let it idle back and give #2 full rack up to safe RPM and repeat. What Mark said is also important . Need to set the linkage for even firing as it will be wrong from India. I set mine with a heat gun aimed at a common point on the exhaust for each cylinder. Mufflers work well because they change temps quickly.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 02:40:53 AM by 38ac »
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Thob

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2013, 02:57:43 AM »
Looking in the third video, is that the return line from the injectors going back to the fuel filter?  I would plumb that over to the top of the fuel tank, separate from the fuel supply, so that any air in that line is not returned to the filter.

I notice the fog from your breath, it must be cold where you are (Sunny and 70* here, at least until Friday).  Diesels don't make much heat unless under load, so it will take a while for the engine to warm up and cure the white smoke.  You'll need to get a load on it and get it hot to break it in anyway, so it's time to figure out how to belt it up to a generator (or whatever you have planned for load).
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Fairmountvewe

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2013, 04:48:45 AM »
Wow!  Thanks for all the comments.  A lot of things to think about.

 I don't know about this phase timing thing.  I have reread the responses a couple of times, and I kind of get it I think, but not really.  If I understand the concept, I fire the ol girl up, let it run to kind of steady state conditions, then individually cut the fuel supply off to each cylinder.  I am not sure after that.  Kind of a "so what" moment.  what am I looking for, and more importantly how do I fix what I may or may not find?  I still have an idea about measuring speed (bike computer), but in the mean time does anyone have an idea about how far the rack is supposed to travel from shut off to full open?  Mine goes about 1/2 inch (6 mm)  Is that right?

The rubber line coming from the injectors into the top of the fuel filter is kind of a mystery to me to, but there is no way to block off the inlet port on the top of the filter (open to atmosphere and cant close it off), and there is no inlet into the top of the tank, so.....?  Again.  I am stuck.

Thanks for the balance comments.  It does kind of shimmy across the floor, but at least it didn't dance right out of the barn!  That would just about convince the neighbors about the character of the person next door!  Ha!  Imagine seeing 1200 lbs of Indian Cast go rocketing past the window at supper time.  "Gee honey.  Looks like Pete is working on the engine again" 

And finally, Skeeters???!!!  Ha!!!  It is hovering nicely around 0C (32F), so no skeeters.  Flies, yes.  Red Squirrels, yes.  Rabbits, rats, posssums and coons yes, but skeeters?  Not until March at the earliest dammit!  Course, all the straw up in the top of the barn is probably pretty much worthless now, but what the hell.  Its only diesel fumes  ;D
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, cooperate, solve equations, analyze a new problem, and pitch manure. Specialization is for insects.

38ac

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2013, 12:59:16 PM »
Although I have never measured one your  fuel pump rack travel sounds right, it is nowhere near the full amount of travel available on the pump. RPM is important enough you should invest in a means of measuring it. Harbor freight has a photo tach that works well or watch ebay for an old Stewart Warner contact type.  What Mark calls "phasing" Is important on a twin. It is the same thing I called "even firing"  or getting both cylinders doing equal work. The whole linkage deal for running the #2 cylinder fuel pump is a bit complex and the Indians do it no favors in manufacturing or assembly. The linkage needs to be free acting with little slop and then adjusted so that both cylinders are producing equal power.
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mike90045

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2013, 03:41:02 PM »
Quote
phase timing thing
I think it's the same as "balancing carbs" on a motorcycle or car.  With a gasoline engine, there is a manometer that connects to the vacuum lines of each carb.  For a diesel, you still have to do it, but with different methods.  Otherwise, one cylinder does 80% of the work, and the other, just 20%, leading to it's wet stacking. 

cujet

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2013, 12:45:59 AM »
You might do better placing some load on the engine. It's entirely possible the rings and valves are not seating well enough to provide full compression and reliable firing. Looks to me like it needs some "break in".
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38ac

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2013, 01:45:50 AM »
Cujet is correct and also under a normal load is the best time to balance the cylinders. They will be close when adjusted at no load but not exactly the same as under load.
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Fairmountvewe

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2013, 02:54:44 AM »
Well I do have a 7.5 Kw ST head currently mated to a 10 HP Yanmar

 

that is supposed to go on the 12/2, but that is a whole frame build away from reality.  In the mean time, I am merrily puttering when and if I get the time.  I am still unsure about "phasing", or "evening" or whatever it is called.  I have measured the amount of movement on the rack on both IPs and they are within 0.1 inch of each other with the fuel lever lowered (at full operating RPM).  I understand that the individual cylinders will react differently when under load, but if they do, I still don't know what to adjust.  Do I play with the vertical  linkage arms, or do I adjust the horizontal arm?  Do I adjust one at a time, do I lengthen or shorten them both at the same time?  I just don't know.   So many things to learn. Again, thanks for all the help, and the chance to learn new things.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, cooperate, solve equations, analyze a new problem, and pitch manure. Specialization is for insects.

millman56

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2013, 07:44:02 AM »
Mike, if you use the "dynamic phasing" method, its important to lock the fuel racks off, otherwise the governor moves them to compensate.
On the Dursley Listers there is a calibration line marked on the right hand side of  the fuel racks, when the rack is positioned both of these should align with the edge of the pumps bodies, this is the  starting point and if the spill timings are correct then both pumps should be delivering a similar amount of fuel throughout the  range.

If as Cujet rightly suggests, there are other problems, then they will greatly influence the engines running and it`s very easy to wind up chasing non existent problems around.
Having an an engine at working temperature is essential when trying to prove or disprove suspected faults,  making one adjustment at a time and noting the pre and post adjustment settings plus the the results is a good way forward..........      Good luck.

Mark.

M61hops

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2013, 07:02:57 AM »
Good balance job Fairmontweve!  Sounds like it's turning 6 to 7 hundred RPM in the video, I wouldn't run it any faster until you can verify speed.  Also sounds like a lot of misfiring!  If you slow it down by about half you should hear a definite rhythm, fire,fire, then coasting churning noises, fire, fire, coasting churning, fire, fire, coasting churning,  ;D etc.  A load on the engine is a must!        Leland
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bschwartz

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Re: Flywheel balancing question
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2013, 09:39:39 PM »
Is it also possible that the IP timing is off on the left cylinder (the smokey one).  It sounds like the timing is retarded on that side.  Do the twins use the same screw under the IP to adjust timing?
-Brett

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