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Author Topic: 18/1 timing  (Read 7635 times)

puterboy

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18/1 timing
« on: December 23, 2013, 10:08:22 PM »
After a year and a half I am finally close to making smoke. Too many things to do when I get home from work. My goal in the next two weeks is to get the base built and fire it up for a minute or two. Once the Roid smokes, I will split my tractor and fix the multi-power and the PTO brake on my Massey Ferguson 175 diesel.

I am timing my 18/1. It appears its the same as any other... 20 degrees, which works out to 4.090 inches BTC. After timing it, the fuel injector tappet holds the injector pump off the cover about 1/8th of an inch when I remove the pump mounting bolts. I thought I heard somewhere there should be clearance between the tappet and the pump? Does roughly 1/8th of an inch sound right? I didn't measure it... it could be more or less. Also, the reason I ask is I took the pump apart to check it out. I can't imagine I got the pump back together wrong because I put it back together 30 minutes after I took it apart, but I am getting older. :) Also, I made my TDC mark using a dial indicator, but my 20 degree mark may be questionable. The flywheel circumference is 73 and 5/8th inches. So 73.625 / 18= 4.09 inches. I'm just trying to think of things I could have done wrong if there is supposed to be clearance between the tappet and the pump. BTW... the 1/8th inch is while the injector lobe is 180 degrees away from the injector pump.

Tom

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 11:10:31 PM »
That sounds about right. The tappet needs to move the piston up enough to cover the inlet port in the pump.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

puterboy

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2013, 12:26:35 AM »
Thanks for the quick reply. I could fire it up tomorrow if I had the base built.

38ac

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2013, 12:09:32 PM »
The return spring in the pump will cause it to rise a bit even with the lobe pointed down. The clearance you read about is very important in the higher speed engines with advanced pump timing and is referring to the the point at which the pump lobe is pointing straight up. A 1000 RPM 25-2 Powerline I used to own was delivered from Indiia with both pumps bottoming out HARD.  This is due to the cam follower being lengthened to advance the timing. It is possible go too far and the pump runs out of travel and the plunger is still trying to push it further up. The specbook needed clearance escapes me? but it doesn't need to be much. I have a very basic way to check it. I made up a bar that fits under the mount and against the jam nut and with the pump at full stroke I bar the plunger upward to check for clearance. Lacking that bar or a jury rigged replacement a person could do it this way. Once timing is set  remove the pump. Then mark the head of the bolt and turn out out an additional 1/4 turn. Place the pump on the mount and push down by hand. It must go all the way down to the mount if not you need to back the timing down. If OK return the bolt back where it was and happy motoring.

I have a 18/1 patiently waiting it's place in line myself,,, someday.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

puterboy

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2013, 01:17:37 AM »
Thanks. I couldn't find where I read about the clearance... seems to me it was fifty some thousands. My plunger didn’t seem to bottom out, and setting the timeing was such a pain I don’t want to time it again. Although I could try bringing the lobe up and see if I can move the plunger with my fingers. Actually, timing wasn’t hard, but tightening the locknut was a pain. I had to remove the tappet to tighten the locknut. I found I had to retard the timing about 3/8 of an inch…. Then when I tightened the lock nut it was right on 20 degrees.

How much danger is there in starting the thing while not being bolted down? Ever since I bled the lines and heard the injector creak, I’ve had a hard time not starting it. How much danger is there? Have you done it, or has anyone here done it? I am about 3 days away from having the base ready... if I don’t paint it before I bolt the engine to it. Christmas has added a day to my estimate. Family doesn’t understand why someone would rather work on an engine instead of visit. Some people's priorities are all messed up. ;)

dieselgman

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2013, 01:22:17 AM »
I don't recommend starting the unit without being bolted to something at least a little bit wider than its base. These things are notorious for being out of balance and are also top heavy. So, unless your unit has already been set up with very fine balance, patience is best. You don't want that thing chasing you into a corner!  :laugh:

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

Tom

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2013, 07:44:04 PM »
+1 on that and I'll add that you want to turn down the governor to keep the rpm's down. And make sure the governor operates freely.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

puterboy

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2013, 03:46:50 AM »
Thanks DieselGMan. I wanna start it, but don't want a KillDozer situation. You can read about KillDozer here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killdozer!_(film), and watch it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r3y-SRsNPI. I was 13 when I saw the moving the first time. I had

Also, thanks Tom for mentioning the governor. George's CD warns about both the governor setting and the governor sticking. I had the rack stick on mine the first time I put the linkage on that pins to the injector pump rack. I flipped the linkage over, and it has never stuck since. However, the CD doesn't make it clear where the governor should be set for a fist start. I adjusted it to where the spring just starts to have some tension. Is there a starting point that is easily conveyed in writing, or is it an experience thing?

Tom

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2013, 11:02:47 PM »
That sounds like a good start for an initial adjustment.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

32 coupe

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2013, 11:23:12 PM »
With the fuel arm in the down positin the "rack" will be wide open. When the engine starts you will see the rack start toward the  off or no fuel position. Keep the spring tension light and the engine should run slow at first. Watch the rack carefully on start and if you have ANY  doubt it is overspeeding  you can shut it down. I usually have several start / stops before I reach running rpm on a new or unknown engine.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 11:26:46 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

puterboy

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 07:38:08 PM »
It runs!!! The first time I tried it bounced off the compression stroke, so I turned it faster and it started right up. Sure glad I didn't start it before bolting it down. It really pops around until it gets up to speed. It will need balanced some too. At least I got it running before 2014.

dieselgman

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 08:54:02 PM »
Good job! Now you can forge ahead with the fine tuning!  ;)

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

puterboy

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2013, 03:19:57 AM »
One other thing is the governor was set way too high. Even after backing it off to where the spring just started to have some tension, it ran at 950 RPM. These run at 850 RPM. I can't imagine someone surviving the first start of any brand of Listeroid without reading this forum and/or buying Georges CD.

I made a trailer out of 1/4 inch plate, 2 inch square tubing, and a axle with the hubs and wheels I found for $50. Watch the video below and you'll see what I meant when I said it was popping around until it came up to speed. My 82 year old dad held the tongue down. I have the engine's center 4 inches ahead of the axle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJLYlmWD828&feature=player_detailpage

I now have to split my tractor to fix the Multipower and the PTO clutch. I live in hilly country. If multipower doesn't work on a Massey Ferguson, you don't have engine breaking. I can't work on the Roid again until the tractor is fixed. However, I still need to buy a pulley for my gen head. What are some sources for pulleys? Thanks for all your help DiesleGman and the rest of this forum.

Fairmountvewe

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2013, 04:00:25 AM »
Awesome!!!!!  Hard to call it first smoke when it really doesn't even smoke though ;)  Just out of curiosity (and maybe it is the video angle), but are the water hoses pointed slightly down-hill?  Seems to me that unless there is a water pump involved, those hoses want to be pointing upward.  Just a thought.  Congratulations on your successes thus far.

Peter
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, cooperate, solve equations, analyze a new problem, and pitch manure. Specialization is for insects.

puterboy

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Re: 18/1 timing
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2013, 10:50:40 AM »
My apologies. The video was meant to show how mine moved around until it came up to speed. The one in the video is not mine. I only have the engine bolted down at this time. I don't have a video worth watching because my brother didn't know how to operate my phone. He paused the video when it should have been running. I've got a lot of video of the floor.