Author Topic: Listeroid's first day at work!  (Read 25506 times)

GuyFawkes

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2006, 06:05:38 PM »
Guy---

I've built several of the regular water rams.  I'm now looking for a classic-looking air chamber for the top....what I'm REALLY looking for is an original Green and Carter #1 1/2.   :o

995 quid for a new one with the spares kit, so xe.com says thats 1,818 bucks US, split shipping with andy and his startomatic and bobs yer uncle
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Tom

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2006, 06:55:49 PM »
Here is the best site for info on this pump. If you could imagine a steam engine in reverse (and I'm sure you can) this is it.

http://advancedenergyonline.com/catalog/water/High%20Lifter%20Water-Powered%20Pumps%20-%20Water%20Pumping.htm
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

hotater

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2006, 07:17:24 PM »
Tom---

I can imagine a steam engine in reverse...but I can't make it pump water.   ;D

I want to build one of these in the worst  way.  The 'quiet' is what I'm looking for.  My water source is 110 degrees and 10 gal/min with up to eight feet of fall.  Water rams work but the constant clicking begs a bullet in about an hour!

I've tried to find the patent drawings for it, but it's under some strange name, I think.  I haven't found it.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Tom

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2006, 07:35:30 PM »
The system consists of 2 double acting cylinders and a IIRC spindle valve.

You feed the low pressure supply water into a large cylinder and use a straight connecting rod to push a small cylinder of water to a much higher pressure.  At the end of the stroke you dump the water and pressurize the other side of the large cylinder. You just use 4 check valves on the high pressure side, an inlet and outlet on each end.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

hotater

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2006, 07:46:59 PM »
Tom---  Since it takes twice the energy to get a mass in motion as does to keep it in motion there must be a use of a water hammer somewhere to initiate an action.  The Devil is in the details, I think.

It sounds like they're using very light weight plastic pistons and cylinders....and by the prices they must be proprietary parts.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Tom

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2006, 09:45:07 PM »
I don't think so, a water hammer is not a self starting process or variable speed and this is. Maybe if you spent 99 bucks on a rebuild kit you could reverse engineer it from that (and use the parts too).
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2006, 11:46:40 PM »
The system consists of 2 double acting cylinders and a IIRC spindle valve.

You feed the low pressure supply water into a large cylinder and use a straight connecting rod to push a small cylinder of water to a much higher pressure.  At the end of the stroke you dump the water and pressurize the other side of the large cylinder. You just use 4 check valves on the high pressure side, an inlet and outlet on each end.

Here are some pics of some old ones.
http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/gallery/water_lizards
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Andre' B

Tom

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2006, 01:41:39 AM »
Ah, water lizards, I learn something new every day. The water must have been really bad back then to setup a separate system for washing hair.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Mr Lister

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2006, 09:29:36 AM »
Guys,

Good to hear that BruceM has put another Indian engine into slavery. That's what they're made for!

BTW The Godwin's pump that Guy Fawkes found on ebay looks very familliar.   

I have one of those in my back yard!  It was driven by a 16hp twin cylinder Lister CE (in the front yard - because it's too heavy to shift).

It used six V belts in parallel in the drive.


Ken


fattywagonman

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2006, 02:22:56 PM »
Howdy Hoater,
If you want to make a water driven lift pump (intesifier) like the one Tom posted  I'd suggest a couple of stanless air cylinders... There reletively cheap and good quality.. connect the two pump v ia piston rods and use a flip flop type valve that it operated by piston the at the end of each stroke.... only catch is it has to snap over center in an instant.. I don't think there's an off the shelf supplier for the valves but with all these guys helping who knows what they'll dig up.. as for the steam pumps shown I've always know them as duplex type pumps..   

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2006, 03:26:05 PM »
.. as for the steam pumps shown I've always know them as duplex type pumps..   

Actually those were designed to be driven by water, other pages at the same site have steam powered pumps, but I think the only real difference is a bit of valve timing and maybe different materials used for seals and such.  Duplex verses simplex refers to two or one cylinder, the duplex type is a little more reliable because the valves for one cylinder are tripped by the other cylinder at about the middle of its stroke.  The simplex type has to trip its own valve at the end of it's stroke and it is easer for things to get out of adjustment resulting in a stalled pump.
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hotater

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2006, 04:10:31 PM »
  This is all fascinating stuff.

 I didn't realize there was more than one design for a water operated pump!!  I saw a water ram work when I was in the Boy Scouts on a camping trip to the Smokey Mountains in 1958.....I nearly drove my dad crazy when I got back home telling him about it.  It was years later that I found a drawing in a library book that showed how the thing worked.  I built the first one when I was a teen-ager, but had to run a garden hose up a tree to feed it water!!   'Fall' is VERY hard to come by in Florida!

There seems to be a commonality among the other designs I've seen so-far....VERY complicated compared to the original with many more parts and things to go wrong.   Is the performance that much better??  There must be some advantage otherwise nobody would pay the extra money for them.

I don't understand why more people don't use water powered pumps if they have the fall and the water for it.  Some in the Carolinas have been working for generations.  8 to 10% effeciency isn't bad when it's free.

In *my* situation I have about 15 gallons of 110 degree water falling 8 feet all the time, 24/7.   A properly sized water ram will pump about 2 gallons a minute of that water fifty feet (elevation, 300' lateral) up the hill to a tank that will constantly feed water to a series of radiators in an interior closet that will have a small fan to distribute some heat to the main building.
  Since the #&*%*!  engineers and contractors put in too small and too few floor heating tubes and didn't insulate the slab at all, the floor heat is nearly useless unless it can run 10gpm 24/7.  That takes a genset and pumps.

Since the spring and well water is hot all the time, cold weather is only a factor in that the water line to the building will cool off quicker.  It'll be black poly pipe laid underground in a wheat straw bed.  Since the hot source spring is between the ram location and the building, I could run the water line through a water/water heat exchanger mounted in the spring to re-heat the pumped water, too.  In the Carolinas a water ram will form ice around the dump valve and it'll stop .  Mine should run in a plume of steam!!

The goal is to have building heat without burning diesel fuel to get it.  In a perfect world, with money to spend on my own property, I'd have a windmill tower mounted over the spring with solar panels mounted on the south side of it to run a DC pump in addition to the wind-powered pump,  so water could be moved through the house by one of several means, depending on what's available......right now it's only moved by one of two electric pumps or by a mini-Petter diesel pump.
    Before the summer is out I hope to plumb the 40,000 gallons of up the hill water storage into heat exchangers in the springs so that I can leave home and have a means to heat the place even though it cost $2 to $10 per 1000 gallons (depending on genset used to power the well pump)  to pump the water up there to start with!

To repair the damage done by totally ignorant, stupid, and iron-bound civil engineers is costing thousands of dollars and years of work!!  The idiots *ignored* gravity in their building design but hooked all the irrigation circuits together so it cost me 10,000 gallons an hour to water anything!!

Mama always said I'd end up digging ditches for my room and board!!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 04:35:10 PM by hotater »
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2006, 04:26:46 PM »
  This is all fascinating stuff.

 I didn't realize there was more than one design for a water operated pump!!  I saw a water ram work when I was in the Boy Scouts on a camping trip to the Smokey Mountains in 1958.....I nearly drove my dad crazy when I got back home telling him about it.  It was years later that I found a drawing in a library book that showed how the thing worked.  I built the first one when I was a teen-ager, but had to run a garden hose up a tree to feed it water!!   'Fall' is VERY hard to come by in Florida!

There seems to be a commonality among the other designs I've seen so-far....VERY complicated compared to the original with many more parts and things to go wrong.   Is the performance that much better??  There must be some advantage otherwise nobody would pay the extra money for them.

CNC is easier to aquire than massive foundry skills.

The firm you like just up the road from me can pump water to 1,000 feet of delivery head from 27 feet of fall on the supply side, the big pumps I could stand inside the plenum chamber casting.

Not many folks left who can cast one ton pours of cast iron and gunmetal in one go.

Setting up a CNC and feeding it raw stock and g-code only takes dollars.

one of those when all you have is a hammer etc things.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

solarguy

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2006, 04:29:29 PM »
There are numerous home brew designs on the web that can be assembled at a tiny fraction of the cost of commercial.

Finest regards,

troy

fattywagonman

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Re: Listeroid's first day at work!
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2006, 02:01:27 PM »
Thanks Andre,
I forgot to mention simplex... to me the duplex design seems best as a water driven pump.. a little more constant flow.. a bulb accumulator would also help to smooth the  output...