Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!

[cujet]

OK,

I am glad to see that GTC has posted here! First the good points:

1) GTC was a pleasure to do business with.
2) GTC did not waste time in shipping the products or parts, as a matter of fact, they are speedy.
3) GTC is trustworthy during business transactions.
4) GTC spare parts were very nice indeed.
5) GTC packs spare parts very well, no shipping damage what so ever.
6) GTC engines look good, I would have run them AS IS. (I wanted to inspect internals)
7) I would order from GTC again. (these issues can be resolved)
8 ) Warranty issues are quickly handled by GTC.

Now the bad points:

1) Casting sand galore. I removed 1 and 1/2 CUPS of sand (about 2 pounds, 1 kilo) out of one of the engines. I was promised there would be no casting sand. It was OBVIOUSLY painted over.
2) Casting flaws and cracked block on one of 3 engines ordered. (likely not the fault of GTC as it was painted over at the casting factory?)
3) Connecting rod issues
4) Tappets all (except 1) 0.008 inches out of true.
5) Crankshaft counterweights had casting flaws.
6) Pistons were not clean underneath, plenty of casting grit there also.
7) engine delivered with rust in one of the clyinders. That cylinder continues to leak. We replaced the liner and piston but have some other internal problem. I think head gasket issues, probably from poor assy on my part as we had this cylinder apart 4 times.
8 ) Crankshaft bearing surface were very poor finish. By the way, our machinist polished the crank in 15 seconds per journal on a lathe with crank polishing machine. EDIT, It seems crankshaft finish may have been OK before the test run in India. Close inspection of the very wide  center bearing show scratches only under the bearing. The area outside the bearing has no gouges.
9) the 6/1 also had the con rod dipper screwed in too far. it contacted the crankshaft causing damage.
10) sand got into one of the cylinders causing scoring on the cylinder wall.
11) Casting flaws in flywheel.
12) What kind of clean new oil was used for testing? It was sludge inside the engine.

None of the problems are insurmountable. It would be easy for GTC to do the job correctly the first time. GTC needs to hold the casting company accountable. Not sure how this is done in India, but here in the states, switching companies or demanding warranty replacement would get them to make things right. GTC needs to understand the sand issue completly. That includes sand in and under the piston castings.

I have seen pictures of PS brand engine internals. They look good. GTC would do well to concentrate on this type of quality. I did not expect Japanese type quality when ordering Lister type engnes. However these are not minor issues. These are the type of problems that result in very short engine life. I purchased the Lister type engine for it's reputation of long life.

It is possible that GTC did not receive my e-mail picture of the cracked block. (EDIT: I did not send a picture of the casting hole, only the crack in same block) However I am sure they have a written account of the crack, as other issues in that e-mail were addressed. I will post a pic of the crack and of my repair.

We all understand that Lister engines are not perfect. My hope is those selling Lister type engines will respond to this forum and improve quality. The internet is a wonderful and powerful tool. Those who manufacture engines would do well to learn from past mistakes and grow.



Chris

[hotater]

Mr. Khan---

THANK YOU for taking the time to answer and explain the positions of you and your company. It is appreciated very much.

Much of the critical comments you read here are written in amazment more than anything else....amazed that such mistakes in manufacturing can take place and actually reach the consumer, after great expense in shipping and customs and fees, at all!
The crude fit, finish, and sloppy paint job would be comical if shipping and other expenses weren't so high.

The pitiful part of it is, it's so EASY to do it RIGHT!!!

 The most *expensive* part is the one that has to be replaced or repaired,  NOT the one that was made right to start with at added cost.

With my own engine, I'm convinced there was NO inspection of it at all.  There was no "quality" to inspect, control, or reject, in any way.  As long as there were parts occupying the correct space the engine was deemed fit to sell.  Many Listeroids are the same way.

I've never seen any Listeroid but my own FuKing 6-1, but I like a company that communicates with their customers.  I would certainly put GTC on my list of future vendors just because you took the time to answer a customer's concerns in a public way.

Thank you again.

[Doug Waggonner]

While reading thru this thread I was amazed by the slander.  And it seems if Mr. Khan was not even aware of the problem untill he read it here on the Fourm.  I'll agree that, Yea it sucks to revieve a bad engine after the expence of buying it, shipping it, and all of the US customs bull shit.   BUT, I think it would be alot more professional to at least work the problem out with the MFG'r before going online and talking alot of shit about the MFG'r.  I have been importing GTC's engines for 6 years and every now and then I"ll run into a problem with a part or casting.  But I repair or replace it and move on.  And guy's, for the price of what these engines cost from the factory your not going to get a BMW.   The reason why I am a Engine Dealer is that I believe in these India built Lister Diesels, They are alot of fun to run and they are truly an engine that has stood the test of time. Name just one other style of engine that has been in producton this long.  I know there are people that dont want to pay the cost of MY engines and just buy direct from the factory, and when they run into a problem like this they get mad.  The end user of the product shouldnt have to contact the MGF'r half way around the planet to resolve an issue. This is why I urge people to buy from a reputiable dealer, even if it's not me. Just ask some of our Canadian engine dealers, If someone emails me from Canada wanting to buy an engine I'll give them pricing, information ect. Then I"ll also turn them onto the engine dealers in Canada.  THIS IS THE REASON, if they were to ever have any problems they can at least have it resolved in thier own country.  I dont want this to turn into a sales pitch, I just want folks to know that dealers in general care about the products they sell. And want to do right by them.  Mr. Khan with GTC is the best Lister diesel exporter in India. He always replys to E-mails fast, if there is any problems he will jump thru hoops to reslove it. And he stands behind his products 110%.   All of the remarks made early on in this thread about GTC will definatly leave a bruse on thier reputation. But, Mr. Khan came on here and stated that he is going to take care of this issue and the person in the shop responsible for it has been delt with, which more that likely means someone got the boot,. And I for one will stand behind GTC and Mr. Khan. 

[Eco Diesel]

I to would like to thank Mr Khan for joining the forum and responding to this issue. Before I chose a manufacture from which to import engines from, I had recieved info from a number of different makers and as well talked to many people who allready had experience with a number of the different brands. It was after talking with Chris and especialy after talking with Mr Waggoner that I chose to place my order with GTC as he had been importing their engines for quite some time. Mr Waggoner had told me that Mr khan had bent over backwards in every way he could regarding answering emails with speedy response, and meeting every request that was asked of him regarding engine orders. This is the kind of support an importer needs from his supplier! My first GTC engine order is just a few weeks away and I can honestly say that over the last 4 months Mr Khan has been very accomadating in every respect by answering every question I have thrown at him (there were lots of questions), test running the engines each with new oil only as I have asked for, and as well implimenting a QC check sheet which follows the engine from start of assembly to finish etc. Mr Khahn appears to be a stand up guy and I feel better today for having chose his company to supply me with my first order.

Troy

[cujet]

OK,

I do not want to slander anyone. I am sorry for writing this thread. I was annoyed and having a bad day. My engine was a combo of all the bad parts of all 3 engines.

Please understand that if GTC will continue to sell to me, I will continue to purchase from them. The customer service is that good.

Doug and Troy, I did make every reasonable attempt to let GTC know about my problems. AND EVERY ONE OF THEM WAS ADDRESSED. There is not a problem with communication as far as I am concerned. I believe I mentioned here that Atul Patel offered to replace the block. My pictures were 8MP hi res pics from a very high quality Nikon. I did forward them to GTC, and they were proof enough to get warr.

Again, GTC did a perfect job in addressing the problems. I am sorry to have implied otherwise.

My hope is this thread will provide GTC the incentive to procure good castings, install 100% good parts and improve on other minor flaws.


Chris

[hotater]

Well said.

[cujet]

One slight communication error.

GTC said that they never got the e-mail about the hole in the block, and I never sent one. I recently discovered this hole during block cleaning.

I said I sent a pic and e-mail about the crack in the block, a totally unrelated issue. There was no response from GTC on this one issue,  but rather Atul Patel did respond and did offer a new block.

I trust that clears things up.

Chris

[Doug]

Hello Mr. Khan:

Thank you for posting a reply, and thank you for making things right on Chris's engine.
Part of the problem you, the other Indian manufacturers and us the consumers of your product face is the lack of a dealer network and after sales support.

We all verry much want to see your engines sold in or respective countries and we all want the best possible quality, as do you. This however is going to continue to be a problem unless there is better communication between the works and the consumers. But you have taken a verry important first step by being the first manufacturer to openly respond too problem here and I thank you.

The next step is to build some sort of dealer network, parts and support for your product.
Hopefuly this is coming.

Doug

Not the Doug who purchased an engine from you but I have placed with Anand. Like you Mr. Patel is also verry concerned about QC issues and the reputation of his engines. A dealer of another brand in Austrialia told me his engines were of poor quality. When I asked him about this he didn't even know who the man I was speaking to was but was so concerned about this that he sent me several emails trying to track down this fellow to try and find out if it was a PowerLine engine so he could resolve the issue.

Pehaps the webmaster might be able to help you and the other Indian works by creating an area for you post information about known defects, fixes and service bullitins that you could issue when a problem has been found. This way we could know if a certain part or a chroic problem and what recomendations you have to prevent an engine failure. It would also be nice to know if and when you have upgraded or improved parts to offer many here including myself would be willing to buy better cam gears or perhaps better rings, cylinder liners and head gaskets. This forum could also be a great asset to you and the other respective manufacturers since we all wish to see you succeed and reach the point where the general public can go and see a Lister clone at a factory athorized dealer and purchase these wonderful engines again.
 

[GuyFawkes]

As you all know, I have a genuine Lister and not a listeroid, but it can't be stressed enough that this chap is not just doing business with foreign customers (you lot) in a foreign country (USA) but he is dealing with people from a quite alien culture to his own, and doing so in your native tongue, not his.

He is to be commended for this, but watch out for "gotchas" in communications... for example....

1/ He will naturally try to please, and there is a tendency in many eastern cultures to be unable to say something that will displease you, so even if you luggage is missing, nobody will admit it, but you being from another land don't pick up the cues to tell that when someone says "Your luggage is not missing" they do not actually mean you luggage is missing, a local will stop asking for his luggage, accept it is missing, and move the discussion on to the next stage.

2/ The british army caused literal riots and uprisings in india, by handing out animal fat to lubricate guns with, western culture is full of references that will offend, "ran like a pig", "was a pile of bullshit", various religious systems and various caste systems.

One final point, when the british went out there originally to "impress" the "natives" with beads and buttons, they were humoured by a nation that had maharajas and so on and riches beyond belief, and exquisitely worked cloths and artifacts, but you are not maharaji, you can't put a man's eyes out for not doing something properly, or to stop him doing something for anyone else, you're at the end of a long chain of systems that all start in a country that is in some places still almost in the stone age in the technological sense, they are doing their best to become a "First world" country, but doing so in conditions that would destroy any western business over night.

This chap seems very eager to please his new customers in his new market, full marks, but try to meet him half way, and that means half way culturally etc too, try to understand and learn about your supplier, which I know is not how things are done now in the western capitalists world, but anyone buying indian listeroids has left the western capitalist world.

[fattywagonman]

I was talking to a guy about doing business with india... he said be carefull... they have about 10 different ways to say "NO"

[cujet]

Wow!

I did not understand the language barrier you spoke of. Now I do.

Guy, I have traveled the world and never have I experienced what you speak of. But I do know you are right, every culture has it's thing.

If GTC wants to grow as a company and become a world leader, they will accept the responsibility to improve the product. The Japanese did and now make the finest machined parts anywhere. The best example I can think of is Honda. In the 60's they made little bikes that ran well but were not the highest quality. By the 70's they were a world leader in motorcycles. None better! C'mon GTC, we all want to see you succeed!


Chris

[GuyFawkes]

Wow!

I did not understand the language barrier you spoke of. Now I do.

Guy, I have traveled the world and never have I experienced what you speak of. But I do know you are right, every culture has it's thing.

Here in the Uk I can go to a butcher and ask for a joint, go to a newsagent and ask for some fags, and if I say some woman has a nice fanny I'm talking about camel toes and not asses, which are donkeys...

etc

[enginepower]

Hi Chris..
Good afternoon..

I have logged on the forum and nice to read your response to my reply on the board.I am glad that you have appreciated our good points and highlighted our bad points with refrence to that engine.There has also  been a lots of exchange of views  by various other memebrs in just one day.


I acceptthe mistakes again and yes agree with you that had the job been done correctly at the first time or shopfloor level such a situation would not have taken place.In fact it has opened our eyes to change our vendor for casting of crankcase and review our assembly and shopfloor technicians and supervisors.We have taken this as a lesson and learnt from our mistakes.

I am sure you didn’mean to slander our image.Thanks for acknowledging on our companies communications and other good  aspect .I assure you that we will improve and build our image and succeed in building our image .I agree with what you said about Honda.We shall strive our best to acheive the same.

I just wanted to clear one misconception here and that is what you are mentioning about Mr.Atul Patel.Let me tell you he is a very good friend of mine for long time.I had a talk with him on this issue and asked him why was he offering you the block and answering to you.He was  totally surprised when told him the whole issue.He said that one of your friend ROCKET BOY is doing business with him  was talking to him and sending him pictures and Mr.Patel thought  that it is his engines he was writing to him and you were quoting him on the forum.I was also wondering how the pictures you were sending to me is going to him if you are not sending him and how is he writting to you for replacements. Mr.Chris,its my request that anything to do with my engines should be reffered to me only and I will reply and find solutions.I share a good relationship with Mr.Atul Patel and wish to continue.

I think we should not go on and on now and thanks for your support.We standby you always.

I am arranging to send you the crankcase soonest possible and once again assure you that we will take care of all the flaws mentioned by you and will come back and assure you our best attention always.

Thanks ..
Khalid khan

[enginepower]

Mr. Khan---

THANK YOU for taking the time to answer and explain the positions of you and your company. It is appreciated very much.

Much of the critical comments you read here are written in amazment more than anything else....amazed that such mistakes in manufacturing can take place and actually reach the consumer, after great expense in shipping and customs and fees, at all!
The crude fit, finish, and sloppy paint job would be comical if shipping and other expenses weren't so high.

The pitiful part of it is, it's so EASY to do it RIGHT!!!

 The most *expensive* part is the one that has to be replaced or repaired,  NOT the one that was made right to start with at added cost.

With my own engine, I'm convinced there was NO inspection of it at all.  There was no "quality" to inspect, control, or reject, in any way.  As long as there were parts occupying the correct space the engine was deemed fit to sell.  Many Listeroids are the same way.

I've never seen any Listeroid but my own FuKing 6-1, but I like a company that communicates with their customers.  I would certainly put GTC on my list of future vendors just because you took the time to answer a customer's concerns in a public way.

Thank you again.

Mr.Hotater..
Thanks for your reply and your appreciation.My company believes in talking to customers and bringing solutions rather than nagging it or moving away from it.I totally agree with you that  its easy to do it right and if things are really controlled at the root level.The cost facor & time involved is really too expensive and could be avoided if done right.Thanks for your suggestions and I have noted it very much.
Lastly I appreciate your gesture of putting GTC on your list of FUTURE vendors becsue of our customer care.
Will always maintian the same level.
Thanks
Khalid Khan

[enginepower]

Hi Mr.Waggoner and Mr.Troy, Mr.Doug

Thanks for all the kind words and confidence you have shown in our products.

Mr.Waggoner I appreciate your comments stating GTC is the best Lister diesel exporter in India..By saying this you put a lot more responsiblities on my and my companies shoulder..Its good to be the best but it takes a  lot of efforts to continue with it and excel always..We shall try and give our best...Thanks for standing behin us always..It means a lot to us.

Mr.Tryoy...
I am so happy to know that you choose my company after so much of research with other engine makers.I feel honoured.My companies support will always be there as before for you.Thanks for every thing...


Mr.Doug..
Thanks for your kind words and appreciation.Its my duty to set things right for Mr.Chris when he has imported engines from me..The lack of dealer network is absolutely right and thats what Mr.Waggoner mentioned.I think we need to give a serious thought on this.

I do agree the webmaster mght be able to help us in this forum to post information on the defects, fixes etc and how to counter it and shall be of help to all.

Talking about Mr.Atul Patel.. he is a wonderful person and a good friend of mine and have a very cordial relationship with him.He is a man of word and very concerened on QC matters.We do share our views on these issues sometimes.I think every manufacturer should feel for the product and the brand from within..

Thanks everybody once again...

Cheers

Khalid Khan