Author Topic: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!  (Read 52377 times)

cujet

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Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« on: June 19, 2006, 05:58:10 PM »
I imported 3 GTC engines. 2 are up and running, and the one I kept (the worst one) is still a basket case (I got the bad parts from all 3 engines). I spent all day (and I mean ALL DAY)  yesterday removing casting sand from the block. 1 1/2 cups worth! This stuff was painted over, but was easy to spot. In almost every corner or web, the casting sand was not removed. In some spots it was 3/4 of and inch thick!

Previously, I also discovered a crack in the block on the lower most edge, located on the access cover side. It had been welded in India and then filled with putty. The weld is cracked, but the block seems OK. I added an angle iron strap with Hysol structural epoxy and many structural aircraft screws. It should be strong!

 What was once a viable design has been improved upon by India and now suffers in nearly every way to the original. I have serious regrets with my engine and with Listeroids in general.

Here are some of the major points.

1) Cracked Block
2) Large casting voids in flywheels
3) Casting Sand, in large quantities
4) Corrosion in cyl bore.
5) Scoring in other cyl bore
6) Crankshaft finish beyond unacceptable. Ruined bearings
7) Crankshaft counterweight casting flaws resulting in 1000g less weight on one bob weight
8 ) Connecting rod bushing had 1mm clearance to rod! It was peened to fit (you would not believe it even if you saw it!)
9) Other connecting rod mismatch on big end bearing halfs. (un-usable)
10) etc!

I have said enough.

Chris
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 05:38:20 PM by cujet »
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mobile_bob

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2006, 07:19:00 PM »
sound like a candidate for bondo and a pretty paint job, and then a place on a shelf to look pretty on.

wow

bob g
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BruceM

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 07:31:23 PM »
I agree Chris, it appears that the present manufacturers/assemblers in India are reliably and regularly trashing a venerable design by throwing together defective parts in a haphazard manner. 

It must be very hard on our small business US/Canadian importers, too.  No consistancy from one order to the next, or one crate to the next.  If you get a whole bunch of junk, what do you do?!

Lyons may have the right idea with his US assembled engines, though it must be hard having to "eat" a bunch of defective major parts from time to time. And some problems like a misaligned idler would be tricky to catch.

I hope I get lucky on the operating life of my Metro 6/1. 

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Ironworks

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2006, 12:14:51 AM »
Cujet you took the words outta my mouth...

cujet

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2006, 01:47:50 AM »
I am currently dealing with another big problem. The block has a internal hole in an aft web, filled with sand and covered in rough cast iron. I am grinding the cast iron away to reveal the hole where the block should be. I would have left it but there was a parting seam where the sand was to form the original block. Maybe an ounce of trapped sand here too! There was no way to trap the sand, and I want to be sure.

My time and money may have been better spent on a production engine. Yanmar diesels can be had for about 3K brand new.

EDIT: I now have the block repaired and it should hold up. Time will tell. I think it is beefy enough to hold up with an additonal hole internal to the center web. It took a lot of work to grind out the problem.

I feel stupid. EDIT: I was very annoyed! Feeling better now.

Anyone want a basket case with tons of spares?

Chris
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 05:42:00 PM by cujet »
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europachris

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2006, 02:04:12 AM »
If it makes you feel any better, the company where I work purchased several tons of stamped motor armature laminations from India as a 'cost down' project.

These came packaged in the usual Indian crate that the Listeroid people are used to, and all wrapped up nice in plastic.

Once the packages were opened, the quality of the stampings were lousy, and they were covered in oil and SAND >:(   I really got quite the chuckle out of it.  Needless to say, we didn't start using them as a regular supplier, but continued to use our quality USA supplier (who does outsource some stamping work to China).

I really would love a good quality copy of a 6/1, but I always had a bad feeling of the quality of anything sourced in India.  Initial reports of "it's pretty good if you do some work on it" got me wary, and now it's more of the "total piece of junk" type reports. 

I ended up with a 185 Changfa, mostly due to lack of 6/1 availability (and lack of space for a 6/1 setup), but I can't say I'm disappointed.  The Chinese at least can build an engine that's drop-dead clean inside.

Chris - still longing for a 6/1.....

Doug

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2006, 05:28:54 AM »
Not all engines are equal....

I've seen Photo's of Kirolskar engines in real industrial settings doing real work. Now I have to be honest and say they were the HA series ( a Duetz co production ) but KOEL is selling HA engines in Canada as OEM engines for diesel gensets. The KOEL DM20 Petter twin is EPA tier two compliant and may be coming Canada along with other DM series engines based on the AV2 series 2 with KOEL's own 116 mm long stroke crank. Lister types who knows? Nobody has asked KOEL for a tier two compliant Lister.

I'm not selling these, just trying to make a point you can't paint all of India with broad strokes.

They also make a nice Mig 29, some interesting stand up toilets and state of the art crayon production machines you get what you pay for....

Doug

cujet

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2006, 12:02:56 PM »
You get what you pay for! You are 100% correct! And Sometimes you do not get what you paid for. MY post was about GTC engine problems, and I am sure some others here have similar issues with other brands. Some do not even know it!

I do not mean to paint India's quality control with a broad brush. Fact is, some of the parts inside the engine are OK quality. Some are not. The spares I got were higher quality that what was installed.

However I did not mention some of the other more minor problems. Things such as con rods that are 2+ pounds different in weight installed in a twin. Pistons that are fully 1000g different in weight. Piston pins that are 30G different in weight. The parts themselves might have been OK if grouped together with like parts. What I am truly afraid of is that some here do not even know how bad the parts inside the engines are. We have example after example of failures. All of which are preventable. Maybe I will aviod some of the common problems and have a flywheel fail instead.

Then there are the lifter issues. Mine were all about 8 thou out of true and rough as hell. That is absurd. Anyone can cut a surface flat on a lathe, even me.

The problem as I see it, is that the Lister manufacturers do not care to bother with any sort of quality control.

I now have about 2 months of work into my lister clone. It has been a waste of time and money. At this point, I am so angry I may cut my losses. My time has value (to me at least). I cannot sell it, as the block is cracked. My e-mail to GTC about the cracked block went UNANSWERED. You get the picture.

Chris
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europachris

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2006, 01:28:57 PM »
I'm not selling these, just trying to make a point you can't paint all of India with broad strokes.

Doug

Agreed.  It also surprises me that India has a vast quantity of highly educated technical people, but yet they still are so bass-ackwards in so many ways.  I think many of the highly educated Indians leave the country and go elsewhere for work.

I still find it hard to believe that they can put together such absolute junk and sell it with good conscience.  What does the typical Indian buyer of a Lister do when his brand new engine has a gas tank that leaks like a sieve?  His hard earned fuel is dribbling on the ground.  Not cool...

Chris

JohnF13

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2006, 01:42:06 PM »
Chris;

I'm sorry to hear about your problems.  I will preface my comments with the statement that I sell Listeroids in Canada, so take this as you will.

As importers, we are keenly aware of Indian QC problems.  Some of us have worked with our manufacturers to attempt to bring the QC up to, at least, an acceptable standard.  Your comment re the company not responding to your complaints is well taken - we used to import engines from Ashwamegh, found some serious problems with them, complained to the company and were told that "it couldn't have happened" - this to a group of people who import over 400 engines a year!  Needless to say, we dropped them as suppliers immediately, but those bad container loads of engines cost us a bundle of cash.

Right now there is a shake-out going on in the import business.  Those people that brough junk in and resold it to unsuspecting purchasers are slowly but surely dropping out of the picture.  Unfortunately, the damage has already been done by that point and postings such as yours appear, with good reason.  Those that remain (and there are several good suppliers out there) will ensure that the engines supplied will be the best possible - even if it costs more to spec them out to N.A. needs.

The new EPA rules in the U.S. may turn out to be a blessing - those that are going to continue importing are the same ones that take the time and effort to ensure that the engines they bring in are, at least, of a better quality.  Those that just brought in the cheapest stuff they could find to sell at the highest price possible and make a quick buck will not be able to adapt and so will die out.  What you will be left with are a few importers who actually care.  They will provide superior after sales service and if necessary will replace totally broken engines at no cost to you.

That is not to say that EVERY small complaint will result in an engine replacement - some people are born complainers and expect North American quality for Indian prices.  That just isn't going to happen.  I have had a number of people complain about the "high" price of a Listeroid, yet at the same time they want everything replaced "free".  Nothing is free - every spare part that I import has a cost, in a lot of cases the shipping is higher than the original price of the part, but that's they joy of working with suppliers so far away.

For those reading this board and concluding that EVERY engine out there is bad, please remember that the people contributing here generally want to discuss problems they have encountered and are looking for fixes.  Very rarely do you get people saying that their engines are working fine, thank you!  It does give a slanted impression of the overall quality of Indina imports - yes, there are some bad ones, but there are also many good ones.

If you are thinking of buying an engine, look around at the suppliers that contribute to this board, pick a couple and TALK to them - you should quickly be able to get an impression of their trustworthyness.  IF you want to save a buck, buy directly from India, but be prepared for the problems you may encounter. 

Off the soapbox now....... 
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

rocketboy

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 01:43:27 PM »
Lets not forget these engines were bought to sample quality. Well the jury is in. These GTC engines are crap. Assembled carelessly without the sightest concern for reliability, longevity etc.

They selected these parts, thoughtlessly assembled them, and shipped them to America. GIVE them credit in this forum for their acts.

Share the factual details please.
Post pictures.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 05:00:10 PM by rocketboy »
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BruceM

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2006, 02:15:13 PM »
Good post JohnF.  A shake out/shape up of manufacturers is what's needed. And I deeply respect and appreciate the efforts our our reputable US/Canadian importers. 

I've worked with some top notch Indian engineers, I wish they were managing production and QC on  Listeroids.

Bruce M

ixtow

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2006, 02:57:36 PM »
Has anyone considered that the "quality control problem" may not be accidental?  American Car Manufacturers easily make 300% more on parts than the sale of the vehicle.  A widely used AG engine like the Lister may be more profitable to perpetually repair than to build properly.  Since most of their customers are local, it screws us more because we're not.

cujet

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2006, 08:39:52 PM »
You know, those American car companies and parts manufacturers can build engines on the cheap. Bare, basic engines can be had for a song if you know where to look. Ford Motorsport used to sell 4 cyl engines (far more complex than a lister) for similar to Lister prices. Without accessories of course. I think it is a good comparo. Certainly Chevy crate engines can be had for a fraction of the cost per HP!

Chris
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oldnslow

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Re: Casting Sand and Cracked Block on my GTC brand engine!
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2006, 07:42:34 PM »
Cujet, you were ripped off. Plain and simple. Thanks for telling us. There is no possible way the manufacturer didn't know the extent of the sand in that block...and then paint over it.

Lucky you have the forum to communicate your plight or you would be mired in obscurity as this dealer would have hoped. Right now, the failures of GTC are being multiplied geometrically. If you're lucky they might respond.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 07:36:02 PM by oldnslow »
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