Author Topic: Diesel in sump?  (Read 19324 times)

sparks

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Diesel in sump?
« on: March 17, 2013, 03:40:34 PM »
Hi All
I'm new on here but I've had a look around and nobody seems to have posted anything about this, yet!
My sister has a Lister SR3, aircooled, on her narrowboat. The oil level has been rising slowly, of late, and the obvious conclusion is that Diesel has to be getting into the oil.
My question is this:- Is there a common cause for this?
I've had a quick look at the engine and the low pressure fuel feed disappears into the rocker covers, so I assume there must be a lot of stuff under there that normally lives in the open... eg injector pump, injector.
Is this stuff likely to be DIYable?
I can make brake pipes, in imperial sizes, including single or double flares and I can solder/braze, using gas welding equipment, but have never tried an injector pipe.
What do you guys think?
Thanks
Sparks

dieselgman

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 05:15:33 PM »
The Lister S series is very well known for internal fuel leaks. This is one of the first things Lister technicians are trained in as far as routine maintenance and diagnosis for these models.
Since much of the fuel injection equipment is located inside the block - as you have observed, any of the lines and connections can be the culprit as well as pumps and injectors.

Here are some suggestions, in order of liklihood:
1.) leak-off line connections at the injectors. (low pressure)
2.) supply lines at the injection pumps, or dowty washers. (low pressure)
3.) delivery valve seals in the tops of the pumps. (high pressure)
4.) pump to injector line connections. (high pressure)
5.) diaphragm in the external fuel lift pump.
6.) injector caps, injection pump alignment screws, even faulty injector nozzles.

If your engine is running normally except for a rising oil level, you can open the valve covers and pump cover and run the engine while observing all the parts and connections. If the leak is very minor, and no source of contamination can be found, it may be necessary to dismantle and check each suspect part individually. If you see seepage or dripping fuel around a particular connection, sometimes simply tightening will do the trick. Pay attention to proper torque values, especially on the injection pumps as it is possible to damage parts from excessive tightening. The Dowty washers on the pumps should be replaced anytime you remove the lines, and pay attention to the belled flare connections on the high-pressure and leak-off lines as they can become damaged over time from over-torquing and just plain wear-and-tear. You will be able to see the deformations or ridges on these parts once damage has happened.
You can silver solder steel or braze all of the copper lines if any cracks are found, but not advisable to try repairing the high-pressure lines unless you have no other option available.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 05:19:22 PM by dieselgman »
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sparks

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2013, 07:53:20 PM »
Thanks dieselgman

I had suggested, to my brother-in-law, that running the engine with the rocker covers off might reveal a lot.
He's just been on to say he found fuel spraying out from "somewhere between the pump and injector".
He tried a gentle tighten, but couldn't move the nuts, so he removed the pipe, hoping to find a pinhole in it.
He says it has nuts and olives, rather than any kind of a flare. Is that likely on the high pressure side?
How tight should they be? Apparently they were tight all the way off!

Thanks for the pointers

sparks

dieselgman

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2013, 08:03:25 PM »
High pressure lines are of thick-walled steel and use a type of double flare behind a bolster (extra supporting sleeve) rather than olives (compression fittings). I think this might also be called an inverted flare in some circles.

I believe the fuel pump cap is 35 ft. lbs. and the fuel line will be 25 ft. lbs., always use double wrenches when moving these fittings.

If there is any kind of spray involved, it will likely be on the high-pressure side, and usually easily remedied with a new fuel line.

dieselgman
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sparks

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2013, 08:28:28 PM »
Thanks for that.
I passed the info along to the brother-in-law and he had a closer look at the high pressure line he had removed.
It has bell flares, though he didn't mention reinforcing sleeves. He says the flares are grooved, where the nuts and pump/injector connections have been bearing on them.
He's now confident that a replacement high pressure pipe will solve his problem.
That'll save me a couple of hundred miles round trip to look at it again.
A local "expert" had scared them, telling them they'd have to take the heads off to fix this and it would be hard/impossible to reset the timing afterwards.
I thought this sounded like a cock and bull story, though after reading some of the other posts about S engines I can see how somebody who had no experience could misinterpret the information in this way!
I'm itching to get my hands on this one, but would hate to ruin the boating season for them, for the sake of a little fun.
Let's see what happens...
Thanks

sparks

dieselgman

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2013, 10:02:31 PM »
Right, these engines are very serviceable, but require some specialised expertise and finesse at times.  ;)

The grooves mentioned are a likely culprit for leaks.

dieselgman
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Blue

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 01:55:40 AM »
I had a similar problem with a ST1 I was recently given. I took the valve cover off and turned it over by hand with the fuel lever in the stop position and a little readjustment of the inlet valve to break compression. I found fuel leaking from under the injector clamp ! When I removed it there was a rubber plug in a hole in the injector cap which was leaking as the engine was turned over. I removed the cap and fitted a new tapered piece of rubber in to the hole there. The engine had been sitting a while (like 10+ years) so I guess the old plug perished in that time. The hole serves no purpose and is not threaded. My other ST doesn't have the holes.
Owned; Lister ST1, ST2, JP4, LD1 & 2x Blackstone ERS8. Petter AA1, AC2 and still up for it !!!

sparks

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 01:04:57 PM »
Hi Blue

Thanks for that.
Brother in law has been busy lately, bringing slightly bigger boats in and out of the port, so hasn't had time to do anything with the narrowboat.
Last time we spoke, he seemed confident the pipe was his problem.
Time will tell, I guess. Don't know where he plans to get a new pipe from, but it seems I'm not in the frame for it.

sparks

dieselgman

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2013, 03:04:50 PM »
If desired, we can supply any needed parts.

gary@dieselgen.com
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sparks

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2013, 02:29:43 AM »
Great
Thanks for that
I'll pass it along.
Whereabouts is "we"?
Is shipping to Ireland possible?

sparks

dieselgman

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 03:47:15 AM »
We operate from Alaska and Kansas USA. International shipping is commonplace and easy unless we start moving the really heavy stuff.

dieselgman
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sparks

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 11:50:57 PM »
Ok, guys.

Brother-in-law has finally got hold of a new fuel pipe, fitted it and started the engine.
He says there's still a lot of fuel mist in there, which seems to be coming from the small hole that's supposed to allow oil to drain back to the sump.
Following our discussion, we're wondering whether the mist could be due to the sump being overfull, following the recent fuel leak.
He's going to drain it and fill it to the correct level, but that's not as easy as it sounds, so he'd like to know whether the theory is plausible before he does it.
Apparently it's almost an engine-out job.
I'm really going to have to go and see this for myself...

sparks

dieselgman

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 04:38:39 AM »
An overfull sump, or a lot of diesel in the lube oil will cause serious problems for your engine. Recommend changing the oil altogether after having internal fuel leaks.

dieselgman
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sparks

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2013, 10:10:13 AM »
Hi dieselgman

Yes, we know he can't leave the contaminated oil in there.
It's just that, given the difficulty of changing it, he wants to be sure the problem is solved first, so he doesn't ruin the new oil straight away!
An oil drain pump has been on the "to do" list ever since the first time he serviced it.
I also intend to fit a remote oil filter and oil cooler, to help it run cooler and solve the skinned knuckle problem with the present arrangement.
Honestly, whoever designed the boat must have attended the Peugeot/Citroen design school. No thought at all seems to have been given to access for servicing and sharp edges abound!
Thankfully, I don't have to get involved much, as the brother-in-law is pretty competent.
Thanks for all the guidance

sparks

LowGear

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Re: Diesel in sump?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2013, 06:40:10 PM »
How does that go?

An ounce of prevention can be worth far more than a pound of cure.

Maybe it's time to purchase a sump pump.  Then you can use cheap oil for the test and easily upgrade once you're comfortable with the repair.

Casey
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