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Author Topic: Help with Balancing 6/1  (Read 12374 times)

mike90045

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 02:10:54 PM »
  ....Now to research Gib key Pulling.  :-[

And beware the key that won't install right.  And how to space the flywheel from the housing.  Nail all that stuff down
before you pull the keys,  I think it's easier to tie the valves open (but not so much they hit the piston) or pull the head, to get rid of the compression, than to pull the keys & flywheels - then reinstall, which frankly, scares me.

bschwartz

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 02:33:34 PM »
I'm glad I took my flywheels off.  If not, I never would have figured out some of my ballance issues.  The cast in weights were NOT the heaviest part of the flywheels.  When rolled on a smooth surface (on a 2" shaft would have been better, but I didn't have one), the flywheels would stop with the weight at about 5:00 instead of 6:00.  I had to take many slow hours with an angle grinder and slowly remove extra flash from individual spokes, and areas around the inside of the rim to get the flywheel weights to point straight down.  Without even adding or playing with other weights, the engine ran MUCH smoother after that.  I have no idea how much weight was at each location, and with enough effort, I could have gotten it smoother than I did, but on a cubic yard of concrete sitting on a 1/2" rubber mat, it worked well.
-Brett

1982 300SD, 1995 Suburban 6.5, 1994 F250, R170, Metro 6/ sold :( , Witte CD-12 ..... What else can I run on WVO?

M61hops

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2013, 10:10:17 PM »
My 6-1 Metro would idle fine but as soon as I opened the rack just a little it would start to leap up into the sky!  That is the reason the guy I got it from sold it to me, it was not useable like that!  I took out the change over valve hole plug and belted an old golf cart motor to a flywheel.  With 36 volts the motor is supposed to make 3hp and it was perfect to spin the Metro at 647rpm.  I had the electric motor, Metro, ST gen head and frame on rollers tethered by a lot of bungee cords to 4 55gal barrels of water. I set up a 1" travel dial indicator and it didn't take long to find that about a half pound of weight about 90 degrees ahead of the cast weight on each flywheel was the fix!  It took a lot longer to set everything up than it did to get the balance right.  Using chalk was not doable for me, it just caused confusion.  The amount of added weight and it's location don't seem to need be too precise and it worked wonders!  For my Metro I don't think there would be a better way to have done this!  Just my 3 cents.                 Leland                    (Before you pull your flywheels I would suggest you try adding weight about 90 degrees ahead of the cast weights, might save a lot of work?)
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

xyzer

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2013, 03:46:32 AM »
M61 is right. I learned by dynamically balancing 2 6/1 they like to be balanced at about 68% of the reciprocating weight. The Indians appear to be balancing at 55%. To increase the % it needs more weight in the counter balance area of the flywheel. Of course one flywheel may be different that the other so ease into it with clay on the inside rim of the wheel.
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38ac

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2013, 03:24:10 PM »

I'm thinking that I was very Naieve  



Could be I guess but then there are two of us  ???   I could not  get anywhere with the 2nd one I did by just chalking the wheels and adding weight although somehow #1 got decent that way.  Now I dont even try chauk before getting the wheels right, sure makes things easier.
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38ac

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2013, 02:23:30 PM »
Getting an engine to sit still on a wheeled cart is an entire world away from getting one to be reasonably behaved when bolted down or on a framework with a generator head or even when lagged to a wood shipping skid. What I have found in my balancing adventures and tried to stress in my rambles on the forum is that when it is critical to have good engine balance (such as sitting on a cart)  it is critical to get the off set weights for both flywheels the same and in the correct position in correlation with the crank throw. These two problems are what cause people to "chase their tail" when attempting the Mr X method alone.   Once this is done achieving a good balance at any given RPM is as simple as figuring out if it is hopping or scooting with the MR X Chauk method and then adding an equal amount of weight to both wheels. ALWAYS either exactly in line with or opposite the crank throw, NEVER at any other position.
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M61hops

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2013, 11:07:23 PM »
When I first saw my Metro jumping off the ground, this image of the heavy piston and rod staying at TDC while the rotation of the crank jerked the rest of the machine up towards someplace where the inertia forces averaged out.  The next image in my head was of a saddle and me riding the machine around the yard!  :laugh: That seemed like it would put too much forces on the flywheels and crank and cause failures that could be painfull so I started thinking of how to tame the engine.  I thought the cast in weights were too light and tried adding more to them but it turned out that more weight was needed about 90 degrees ahead of the cast in weights.  ???  I guess that inertia causes a time lag?  Anyway, the weights I added are well on their way down when the crankshaft throw jerks down on the piston and rod.  It was very helpful to have a dial indicator showing me the amount of back and forth while could see and feel the up and down movement.  Taking out the COV plug and spinning the Metro with an electric motor also made it easier to see what different amounts and positions of weights did.  I also tried adding weights to one side or the other and that didn't make any difference so I'm guessing that my flywheels are both about the same.  My engine now runs smooth enough although I can feel the thump of the power stroke several feet away.  I plan someday to expand the frame of the genset so I can fill it with concrete and set it on a rubber mat.  I put a real heavy pulley on the generator to try and get rid of the flicker and that made the belt chirp on the power stroke and didn't completely eliminate the Lister flicker problem.  Then I machined the rear brake drums off a one ton van to take tapered bushings that allowed me to mount them to the 6-1 crank.  Bingo, no more flicker!  Someday I may test the flywheels off the engine to see how close they match, I'm sure my engine would bobble around a bit if it was on a trolley.  The next thing I want to do to it though is rig up an electric starter and maybe a glow plug; my spine is too messed up to allow me to spin the set by hand and I doubt I could get it started on a cold day.                       Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

mike90045

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 03:12:01 PM »
I had a thought last night, while trying to come up with a way to avoid renting a $70/day vibra-plate soil compactor...   Mount the listeroid on a skid and compact the ground with it

bandmiller2

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Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2013, 12:35:45 PM »
Although I have only an original Lister that runs quite smooth[for a one cylinder diesel] I find this balancing very interesting.I'am on the outside looking in but it seems to be a crap shoot and trial and error is the only solution.Were I to be faced with this I would try a moveable clamp on weight with a cavity to add lead shot.Glort,remember "its but a whale and we're whaling men"keep at it mate.
Fast cheap and easy are seductive sirens,its a rare man that does not court their pleasures.