Author Topic: Upping the HP on a 6/1  (Read 33606 times)

sawmiller

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2006, 04:46:51 PM »
kurdog fatty
how many nours do you all have on lister type engines

Tim

kyradawg

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2006, 05:54:22 PM »

Peace&Love, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 03:54:49 AM by kyradawg »

t19

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2006, 05:58:56 PM »
Guys, lets cut the slights and insults.  If you don't like what someone has typed, call them on the facts, call them on thier ideas, but leave the personnal attacks and the slurs in the kiddy forums.  Too much good information being shared here
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

johnny williams

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2006, 06:35:06 PM »
Thanks for all of the input guys. I have no illusions about makeing the engine X amount of times more efficent nor about getting large amounts of HP from a 6/1. I think my oringinal question was if anyone has replaced the 6HP wheels with 8 or 10 HP wheels and upped the RPM's. I really do love how a simple question can lead to so many answers on so many different subjects, keeps the forum interesting and exciting  ;D. Mike I bought my engine from you so I hope to hear about your experences with changing parts to acheive greater HP.

Thanks again Guys

Johnny Williams

mobile_bob

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2006, 06:56:44 PM »
Guy i follow what you are stateing in as much as how ya going to tell anything without some form of
scientific testing/reporting

i am not sure that it really would take all that much to accomplish, at least in relative terms.

instruments needed

1. temp prob in the coolant so you could test at apples to apples stable temperature, before modification and after.

2. rpm tachometer, so again you would have apples to apples

3. some sort of thermometer on the coolant tank to plot temp rise, vs time, so as to get some sort of data on heat rejection.

4. pyrometer, either laser, infrared, or thermocouple, to further check for heat rejection out the exhaust.

5. a very large plenum not only for the intake but for the exhaust so that pulse waves could be reduced to a point that air flow measurements could be taken. again i don't think it is necessary to have actual airflow precise measurments but rather relative change numbers. this could be done with an anerometer (sp) or a pitot tube and transducer.

6. and genhead and load bank to apply a fixed load.

7. a graduated pipette with a timer to measure fuel consumption vs time.

8. a light meter with a fixed light source might work fairly well for opacity of the exhaust

9. a kwatt meter, or volt meter and amp meter to measure loading.

then useing a spread sheet, one would could plot all the baseline info on a stock unmodified engine, followed by making one mod at a time and rerunning all the tests, and plotting all the results.

i think a crafty individual could amass all the aforementioned bits and pieces, either beg, borrow or purchased for a modest investment.

once having done so, one could get some useful albeit relative numbers or percentage increase or decrease numbers on all sorts of things such as

power increase before and after

fuel consumption increase or decrease

opacity before and after.

heat rejection before and after

and god knows what else could be derived


without at least setting up this group of instruments and following a one change at a time approach i too am hard pressed to accept anyones report on feelings.

it would be interesting to see documented numbers even if relative in nature, on things like

1. changing the muffler, did it increase power or decrease it? did it increase fuel consumption or decrease it? heat rejection increase or decrease? on and on

2. changing to a tuned intake runner, same questions and perhaps different answers.

3. changes in timing, valve settings, injection pressures, piston crown alterations etc.

4. changes in operating temperatures effect on efficiency, power and opacity to name a few

and the list goes on and on.

is this going to tell you how to get a 6/1 to put out 7 hp, probably not. what it might tell you are relative increases as a percentage based on the original base engine.

now that would be useful information if the work results were published along with the open spread sheet so others could review the results.

once having done so, if someone stated that he replaced the oil with soda pop and got an increase of 10% in power production with the same fuel consumption , heat rejection etc. then we could look at it and figure with some certainty that perhaps there is something to using soda pop for lube oil, instead of blowing him off as an obvious idiot. i realize this is a exaggerated example used only to illustrate what i am trying to get across.

bottom line is we need documentation and a scientific approach or it is all just conjecture and pie in the sky.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

fattywagonman

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2006, 06:59:39 PM »
Jonny,
Congrats..
IMO the sign of a good post is a lively discussion about the topic..  
I'm on board with you... I think speeding up the engine is the easiest way to increase the output.. as long as you don't get too crazy with the RPM the pumping losses will be minimal and the efficiency will not change much..  if at all..  
Tim I have a few hundred hours on my Listeroid.. I bought it mainly as a test engine to experiment with..  but I have well in excess of 200 thousand hours of diesel engine operation experience... all types of engines... DI..  IDI.. 2 and 4 stroke.. slow speed.. medium and high speed diesels..  
Lastly the SFC #'s for IDI and DI engines are not in the same ball park.. I think it would be interesting to compare the SFC's for the old Ricardo Commet, indian IDI and DI engines..    

sawmiller

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2006, 07:07:44 PM »
Darren

You still havent answered my question. how many hours have you run a lister type engine.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. because theese theroys are not helping theese engines run one second longer. i have run my 10/1 almost 700 hours since April 15. take your theroys over to the mustang forum where they make serious H.P

Tim.

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Tim last warning.  Keep the topic above the belt line or you will get a time out.
   >:(
« Last Edit: June 19, 2006, 07:18:43 PM by t19 »

mobile_bob

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2006, 07:13:31 PM »
another thought..

one would also have to determine a reasonable margin of error based on equipment used, and also on repeatability of the test results.

perhaps 5 test runs on each setup then take the average, and check it agains the extremes to arrive at a margin of error.

an example might be on consumption 5 runs at 100 grams/kwatt/ hr average and a high of 102 and a low of 98 would indicate a margin of error of ~2%.  Based on this info any modification that resulted within the margin of error would be a modification that produced no increase or decrease over the base engine and should probably be dismissed as not showing any promise of improvement. so if changing the muffler resulted in 101 grams/kwatt/hr (falling within the margin of error) one could arrive at the fact that the new muffler while sounding better does not improve efficiency.

it gets pretty hairy trying to conceptualize the arguement, what are other folks thoughts?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mobile_bob

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2006, 07:16:40 PM »
"would indicate a margin of error of ~2%"

that should have read +/- 2%

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2006, 07:26:39 PM »
Guy,
I gave you some #'s and you're still not happy?
If we can't use#'s from what appear to be creditable scources then the discussion is over... The folks who publised the sajeet site and the one's on the big engine did so for informational purposes.. who in their right mind is going to provide back up data for these #'s... I believe the #'s from sajjet are correct  since other listeroid manufacture's use similar #'s.. and I also believe the #'s from the big engine since someone  obviously took some time to compile a couple different sfc's.. one at full power and another at maximum efficiency.. you could assume they used heavy fuel which has a little more energy by weight compared to diesel.. but that's not going to effect the sfc much..  and doesn't effect the TE at all since whoever did the calcs took into consideration the energy content of the fuel used..  you want all the data but I'll bet you've never ran your lister and weighed the fuel consumed vs the output.. you are as equiped as anyone to provide the #'s you want.. so I would say that rather than just asking for stuff why don't you go fire up you old lister with the commet and provide some data..   

You gave me numbers, but those numbers were hearsay. That means they are not just useless, but worse than useless, because the ONE SINGLE FACT you can say about those numbers is that you can NOT trust them.

Who in their right mind is going to provide backup for these numbers? Every last sould who expects them to be taken seriously?
If you think differently I'll sell you all the listers you want to 200 bucks a pop, just don't expect me to provide backup on those numbers before I cash the cheque OK.

Yeah you're right, I never did this sort of analysis on my lister, I never tried to power an aircraft with it either, I still know for a fact it doesn't add up. The old "if I was going there, I wouldn't start from here."

I don't have to fire up my lister and take readings to prove anything, because I'm not the one arguing against the status quo, you lot are, you all think you are better engineers than lister and ricardo and so on, and you may well be, all you have to do is prove it.

Here's the trouble though, we have at least one person here who thinks the lister is shit and can be improves, and he doesn't even own a listeroid, much less a lister.

You think the lister can't be any better than the listeroid, you haven't owned a lister, so you have no basis for that assumption, you just think "hell, it's half a century old, so it must be crap and easy to improve upon", you don't stop and look at all the stuff around you that is that old and older, and still used, for no other reason that they got it right back then.

Let's take something as techologically advanced (on the face of it) as a rock, let's take the blacksmiths anvil, now there is an ancient design, so it must be crap, so it will be easy to improve, let's see you do it, a challenge several orders of magnitude simpler than improving a lister.

I'm serious BTW, if I was a lecturer today that would be a task for the students, design and make a better blacksmiths anvil, the abject failure they will all inevitably suffer will teach them more than making a solar powered torch or some other shit they do now.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2006, 07:26:53 PM »
Calculated using the figure of .25gal/hr which is what folks are reporting their usage to be.

138000btu(diesel) X .250 = 34500btu/hr
34500btu X .293 = 10108.5watts
10108.5watts X .00134 = 13.54 horsepower
3200watts X .00134 = 4.288 horsepower
=31.58% te @ .25gal/hr

Peace&Love :D, Darren


what's wrong with this picture?

british thermal units per hour > watts > horsepower
why are you doing this? it doesn't make sense?

=31.58% te @ .25gal/hr
is still a  number pulled out of your ass, you have done and shown zero calculations to back this up.

1/ you have picked an arbitrary fuel.
2/ what was atmospheric pressure and humidity?
3/ what was induction vacuum and flow?
4/ what was ambient temperature?
5/ how much thermal rejection through radiation?
6/ how much thermal rejection through convection?
7/ how much thermal radiation through the exhaust?
8/ how much back pressure in the exhaust?
9/ How much energy used in "pumping" the engine gases?
10/ what were oil flows and delta t?
11/ what were coolant flows and delta t?
12/ what were air flows and delta t?
14/ what losses were there to air resistance on the flywheels?
15/ what losses were there to undamped vibration?

you need ALL OF THESE NUMBERS to calculate thermal efficiency.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2006, 07:43:55 PM »
<< snip >>
I'm serious BTW, if I was a lecturer today that would be a task for the students, design and make a better blacksmiths anvil, the abject failure they will all inevitably suffer will teach them more than making a solar powered torch or some other shit they do now.

And if I were a student my first words would be.  I am not doing a dam thing until you define "better" in, writing with your signature. :)
______________
Andre' B

listeroil

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2006, 08:12:16 PM »
I dont know if this information is of any use but it comes from a genuine 1971 lister generator brochure.
              Fuel consumption LB/BHP/HR =0.5
This is for the 6.1 and 8.1 engines it comes out of a genuine lister brochure can we believe these figures

Mick

GuyFawkes

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2006, 08:37:30 PM »
<< snip >>
I'm serious BTW, if I was a lecturer today that would be a task for the students, design and make a better blacksmiths anvil, the abject failure they will all inevitably suffer will teach them more than making a solar powered torch or some other shit they do now.

And if I were a student my first words would be.  I am not doing a dam thing until you define "better" in, writing with your signature. :)


and get 25% of full marks right there.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2006, 08:39:33 PM »
I dont know if this information is of any use but it comes from a genuine 1971 lister generator brochure.
              Fuel consumption LB/BHP/HR =0.5
This is for the 6.1 and 8.1 engines it comes out of a genuine lister brochure can we believe these figures

Mick

I'm my experience that is a conservative estimate, we always used to use it to estimate hours available for a ton of fuel, and always had some fuel left over, 250 gallon tank that was.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.