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Author Topic: Upping the HP on a 6/1  (Read 39020 times)

kyradawg

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2006, 06:44:56 PM »


Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 04:14:42 AM by kyradawg »

JohnF13

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2006, 09:57:41 PM »
Dawg;

Time to ask you again - have you bought and run a Lister yet?  You hadn't the last time Iasked and yet you STILL feel qualified to dump on people's actual experiences.  Please, please - get an engine, run it and try all the things you have advocated, then report back with actual stats - if you do that I promise I'll listen, but not now.

Remember the old phrase - those that can, do, those that can't, teach, or at least attempt to and then get miffed when people point out their obvious shortcomings.

Have a nice day. 
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

Stan

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2006, 04:06:19 AM »
John....."those that can't, teach".......What a sad reflection on the dedicated people that spend 5 hrs per day, 5 days per week trying to make your children into someone that will be successful in this complicated world.  No wonder it's such a hard job with parents like you and that sort of an attitude (which does rub of on your kids whether you like it or not).
Stan

kpgv

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2006, 04:49:13 AM »
How 'bout this as an alternate, learned from my background:

Those that CAN, DO,
Those that CAN'T, Q.C.,
Those that WON'T, AMF!

Kevin


JohnF13

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2006, 01:51:47 PM »
Stan;

In this predominently socialist country of mine (Canada) I know a lot of teachers - they are, for the most part, products of an extremely left-wing university system that teaches "the state will look after you"  as a Mantra, quickly followed by "someone else will pay".  Most of the the teachers I know have absolutley no idea of what is going on in real life and merely perpetuate the "nanny state" thinking.  Yes, they may be dedicated, but to what?

If my child was young enough to be going to school now, it would be a private school that would teach discipline and self-sufficiency.  Your opinions may differ, but what would I know, I'm just a reasonably sucesseful entrepreneur raised in the British school system and one who actually pays taxes.
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2006, 03:09:46 PM »
I've got a stepdaughter, now 20, and well on her way to a good career.

When I first saw her she was 14, quiet, hid in the background.

At 16 she left school. a local school in a fairly rural area, no urban decay here, and a school that has reasonable ratings nationally.

She could draw.
She could write her own name, barely, and read at a similar level.

She had not even heard of long division, much less being able to do it, nor had she heard of algebra.
She knew nothing of history except an opinion piece of a small slice of very recent history, WW2, no tolpuddle martyrs, no 1966, no reformation, no nothing.

She knew nothing of maths or physics or chemistry or biology, the last three being bundled as "science", and consisting of cartoons in a book that, apart from the factual errors littered throughout, appeared to be aimed at six year olds.

She was, in short, fit for a paper round or any job requiring here to say "do you want fries with that", and of course crying when the point of sale machine / till failed to go "beep" or crashed.

I utterly fail to understand what she was doing at school all day every day since the age of five. Certainly her reports and grades lulled her mother into thinking there was not a problem.

At that point I took her under my wing, instead of playstation games for her birthday I bought here a *proper* dictionary and told her to read it, and never ask what a word meant, but look it up and learn it.

The first thing I said to her was "You are not stupid, you are ignorant." look up the definitions.

Now four years later she has worked her way up to being a senior receptionist at a 4 star hotel, part of a privately run chain, her work ethic and attitude has been commended so many times even the MD has written her letters thanking her, after clients had written to him about the levels of service they received at the hotel. The hotel has their eye on her for management, and in her spare time she is studying a degree course BSc in Management and Accounting.

She has learned to cook (no domestic science lessons in school) and learned the value and character of various fresh fruits and vegetanles, and proper butcher meat from a man who can tell you whch fields any particular cut of meat was going "moo" in last week.

She has learned the importance of honesty, especially when it comes to mistakes you have made, diligence, worth ethic, integrity, respectability and much more.

She is a fine young woman and I am secretly very proud of her.

Quite what a score of teachers actually did in 11 years of scholastic (sic) endeavour is quite completely and utterly beyond me.

I can put my hand on my heart and say in all honesty that the only way I can describe it is to label it "child abuse".

Statistically speaking, the probability that she is the one in a million that nobody spotted goes right out the window, because I know many many young people, and they are all similarly crippled for life, while believing the line of bullshit that they have been fed, that they are in fact intelligent and productive members of society.

The girls we are turning out are female, and thus have a use sexually and for breeding the next generation.

The boys we are turning out are male, and thus have a use as cannon fodder or as very very cheap substitutes for high tech factory robots, remembering that the word "robot" actually means (human) worker, and not the mechanical contraption we think of today.

------------------


I could tell you LOTS of stories about teaching, from my lecturer days, that would make your hair curl.

Like the chief of the engineering department (who used to run a small tool hire company and could fix a lawnmower) taking the piss, eg laughing out loud at a "natural" talented lad from a farm who asked if a diesel engine could be a two stroke as well as the petrol engines being used in the example.

I allowed the laughter to die down, and said, to the Head of Department, in front of the entire class.

"Perhaps you would like to give General Motors a call when this lecture is over."

"Errrr, why" was his response

"well, detroit diesels have been making two strokes since long before world war two, they aren't the only one, but they must be one of the biggest, certainly having made millions of two stroke diesel engines for everything from sherman tanks to modern trucks and boats and almost anything else you can shake a stick at, so I am sure they would appreciate an expert like you telling them their products don't exist."

he blustered of course and did the well I didn't know that etc, I insisted he offered the kid an apology, didn't gibe him a choice.

3 days later the dean told me they were overstaffed and didn't need me any more, that asshole is still there, still wrecking minds and careers.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

sawmiller

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2006, 04:22:48 PM »
Good post Guy that about the way i see it to. Most of the teachers now days are after the money , insurance , retirement,etc,


Regards
Tim

kyradawg

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2006, 04:29:09 PM »


Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 04:11:38 AM by kyradawg »

Halfnuts

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2006, 08:01:39 PM »
Guy,

"Too many notes, Mozart."   :(

[edit]  This is off topic.  If you bore easily, then skip the following: 

Guy, I've seen the same thing.  Came out of college with a BSc in Biology and minor in Chemistry.  Wanted to teach science like my dad, mom, sister and grandmother had.  Scored 98% on the National Teacher Exam in my subject areas.  I substitute taught in three school districts to get known and to get the feel for where I wanted to work.  I restricted myself to teaching only science classes (and an occasional math).  Generally, 3/4 of the prople teaching biology had degrees in Physical Education, despite alll the propaganda in the media about schools becoming "serious about attracting good science and math teachers." 

One class I subbed for consisted of the teacher sitting in the front of the room and directing his students to simply read the textbook for the entire class period.  The kids were bored, disappointed, and clearly felt cheated.  It wasn't their fault.  They were being cheated out of an opportunity to learn.  I decided to give them a chalk talk on the subject they were studying, the development of simple vascular plants.  When the bell rang at the end of the class period, the students stood and applauded me.   I had a tough time remaining my composure. 

So next summer when it came around to hiring new teachers, the Principal interviewed me and said, "I've seen you around campus, and heard good things about you from the faculty and even a few students."  I thanked him.  He continued, "So aside from your background in science and teaching, what sports do you coach?"  I told him I wasn't really prepared to coach sports, I just wanted to teach science, and that's all I ever wanted to do.  Being just 24 at the time (read: naive) I thought he'd appreciate my honesty, but it was clear that was the wrong response.  I didn't get the job, and after essentially the same thing happened two more times, I decided teaching wasn't for me.

So 25 years later I'm working in pharmaceutical R&D, earning more than I ever could have earned teaching, and lookiing forward to a comfortable retirement.  I would have preferred to be teaching, even with the harder work, longer hours, lower pay, and poorer insurance and retirement that come with the job.


Halfnuts
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 08:45:43 PM by Halfnuts »

ixtow

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2006, 10:21:00 PM »
I agree with you guys on schooling.  Once the Socialist States has control, they're only obligation is to keep kids dumb enought that they'll never mature to see the crimes of their government.

While attending school is required by law, I haven't got the option of Expensive Private Schools.  So before he went, I spent the time teaching hium myself.  At 5 years old, he could read on a 5th grade level, and his math compared to 3rd graders.  Being the Downright Violent Rebel sort that I am, I'd have gadly started World War 3 to keep him out.  I only sent him in for the social experience.  I didn't want him to be the outcast that I am.  But it's happening anyway.  Most of te teacers at his school are actually quite good at what they do.  Often their hands are tied by government rules, but they really love what they do, and are good at it.  The criticisms come from other parents who aren't up to snuff, in my book.  I'm non-marxist to a point of unemployability, and the parents that know it go out of their way to deride me in front of him.  What the teachers are wise enough not to pull (nanny state, no acountability, etc) these parents do.

I want to kick them in the crotch 'till they bleed out their ears. But of course, this would just serve as another example of what a moron I am for opposing the Proletariat...

I just want to move to the middle of nowhere and start my own little country. and I'll need a Lister.... ;-)

mobile_bob

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2006, 11:49:17 PM »
want a bit more power from a 6/1, build both a tuned exhaust and a tuned intake runner.

actually the lister/oid running at a fixed rpm is a prime candidate for tuned runners.

might get a 6/1 up to as much as 7/1 or a tad better, perhaps as much as an 8/1 if there are other impediments in the runners of
the original castings

prolly comes down to blueprinting the engine, paying close attention to detail, careful balancing etc.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2006, 12:14:26 AM »
want a bit more power from a 6/1, build both a tuned exhaust and a tuned intake runner.

actually the lister/oid running at a fixed rpm is a prime candidate for tuned runners.

might get a 6/1 up to as much as 7/1 or a tad better, perhaps as much as an 8/1 if there are other impediments in the runners of
the original castings

prolly comes down to blueprinting the engine, paying close attention to detail, careful balancing etc.

bob g

A million bucks says you won't see any significant improvements of the natures mentioned.

1/ you are all talking BHP, BHP is heat, eg fuel, fuel is burnt, some comes out as work, rest comes out as heat, so what you are saying is getting a 6/1 to use the SAME fuel, but reject 1.5 Kw LESS heat.

If you can cut the thermal rejection of a 6/1 by 1.5 Kilowatts, well, WTF are you doing pissing around with listers instead of making your first billion....  a 6/1 is _already_ one of the most efficient IC engines out there, and you boys are talking about making simply VAST levels of improvement

2/ 1 or 2 BHP is nothing clever in a 1600 cc 4 pot diesel already pushing out 75 BHP, it is onlt 1.5 to 3%, 1 or 2 BHP from a 6 BHP 1600 cc single pot is a minor miracle, 15 to 30%, can't be done, not unless you want to throw away 80% of the engine and remanufacture all the parts you just threw away in fancy materials.

3 to 5% you may do, so you get an extra 0.18 to 0.3 BHP, a whole 134 to 223 watts, and the only place you can subtract that from is your total thermal rejection, if your Ac head is 80% efficient a whole 107 to 178 extra watts of AC power, which, given that nobody is being that anal about AC efficiencies anyway, is next to useless.

3/ if you want to up the power, you have to up the fuel consumption, so either supercharging or increased revs, and both take you away from what the 6/1 was supposed to be, so why buy one in the first place?
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2006, 01:03:03 AM »
Guy;
Your point 1) was out of context: Mobile-bob DID NOT indicate the same fuel rate. I would presume that he is refering to an increase in the air supply for each combustion event, so when dead racked, the engine won't smoke. With the additional air allowing complete combustion, some increase in peak power would result. Using the words "a tad better, perhaps" (then admittedly hoping for 1 or 2 horsepower gain, a 15% to 33% increase).
So I don't think anyone is denying your point 3) reguarding fuel rate. The rest of your point 3) I agree, souping up a 6/1 (or any Lister-oid) probably is not worth it, better to seek the power you crave in an engine that is known to suppy it..
On the topic of tuned intakes and exhausts, one (1) poster indicated an increase in power from intake tuning, sofar none have indicated any increase from exhaust tuning (that I am aware of). That's not a good statistical body for the result sought, but no reason to avoid trying if you feel the need.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

kyradawg

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2006, 01:14:44 AM »


Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 04:09:17 AM by kyradawg »

mobile_bob

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Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2006, 02:35:35 AM »
i certainly was not suggesting that the use of tuned runners in the intake and exhaust is going to make the engine
markedly more efficient, that was not my intent.  simply a reply on how to get a bit more power, which you will by getting more air in(increasing vol. eff.) and(reducing pumping losses) but at the expence of adding more fuel.

if a 6/1 burns approx 250 grams/kwatt/hr, then even with these mods an 8/1 is likely going to burn approx 250grams/kwatt/hr.

the question was one of increasing hp, not economy.

i dont think many of us can effect economy to any great extent over the original design.

what is interesting to note, is the apparent similarity of consumption rates based on size of engine.
the cox .049 glow plug engine is very close to the same efficiency as huge ocean going diesel engines.

also on a note about tuned exhaust runners
they end up being many feet long for an engine of this size and rpm.
whatever gains that might occur probably would be negated by frictional losses within the runner.

but in any event the cam spec's have alot to do with any gains that could be attained by tuned runners
irregardless of amount of fuel injected

my assertion that a gain of 15 to 30% is probably overly optimistic, one might be able to get 5 to 10 percent gains tho
even on the original design and original manufacture as there are comprimises that all manufactures have to address.
and runner length is one of those comprimises.
it is hard to sell a stationary engine that has a 10 foot long exhaust and perhaps a 5 foot long intake runner just to eek out another horse of power. far easier to just increase bore, stroke or rpm and keep the runner up close to the engine.

we on the other hand as the end user and failing having the ability to increase either bore, stroke or rpm do in many cases have the ability to add longer runners.

if you don't think they work, check out modern diesel engines, with high velocity exhaust port design, pulse manifolds (exh) and plenum runner intake systems. they sure arent following 80 year old design's.

again for the record, i think one could perhaps make another horse of so, with a carefully blue printed engine, with perhaps tuned runners and careful attention to timeing, but with the addition of more fuel. Efficiency might be improved, but i wouldn't hope for much and in reality wouldn't be my goal with any modifications.
lets face it, trying to increase efficiency (real) by even a percent or two is going to be a monumental achievment, and for most of us unmeasureable.
that is like saving 1 gallon for every one hundred burned, most of us would probably spill more than that during fuel ups and servicing the filters.

sometimes my brain works in circles, so i hope i cleared the air a bit.

in summary, the lister is a solid and proven design that isn't going to be measureably improved by most folks in efficiency, some improvement in power might( i said might) be gained at the expense of more fuel consumed.
bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info