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Author Topic: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)  (Read 10492 times)

Incredilion

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Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« on: November 28, 2012, 02:16:01 AM »
OK, so I come home tonight, busy on the phone, see the batts need charging, start my TRUSTY DEPENDABLE Lister.
Working upstairs, I can hear it running, but something isn't exactly right; (again I'm on the phone...) and then....
It stops running.
UH OH.
I hang up the phone, go RUNNING down the stairs, mind going 400+ MPH, and figure out BEFORE I get there that no; I did not turn on the valve that feeds the engine COOLING WATER.
Yes, I am stupid. 100%, plus.
 I turn on the water, (thermosiphon) and hear it come BLASTING through the lines, starting to cool down this head that's HOT.
Using my temp gun, read 300+ degrees at the top of the head. BAD......
I tepidly grab the flywheel, and try to turn it, KNOWING that it must have seized.
It turned. Oh my God.

I started it, and watched it start. Watched the temps go down to normal.
The engine runs exactly as it did before my idiocy.
OK, so I am a moron. I agree with myself.
Now, WHY did this engine stop instead of either running away or destroying SOMETHING inside?  
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 05:32:16 AM by Incredilion »

selmawp

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 03:34:58 AM »
You lucky DUCK ;D ;D
 Have I somthing like that? It would take to long to count ::)

ronmar

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 04:31:29 AM »
So I bet from now on, you will hang the starter handle on the water valve so that won't happen again?

Been there, done that, it usually damages the head or at the very least the head gasket.  These buggers are pretty tough though, you get that with a big block of cast iron I guess...

I have spent the better part of my adult life making things operator proof.  We are often our own worst enemies:)  

It may have shut down due to the fuel reacting with the extreme heat in close proximity to the head/cylinder...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 04:33:20 AM by ronmar »
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Incredilion

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 05:31:15 AM »
I swear to god, I'm gonna tie strings/ropes from place to place, and make it to where NOTHING works unless it's all done. The older I ghet the more this crap happens....just incredible that I can (in my own mind/legend) be so smart, and so stupid at the same time.

I think you're right, Ronmar, it must have had somethign to do with the fuel stopping, because really; nothing shoudl have stopped it before total annihalation. I was sure that it was seized when I got there, for real. I mean, there's no safety anything on it that would make it quit running, so the idea that it stopped is just kinda miraculous.

What an absurdly built engine though, huh? I've done dumb things that were a lot less bad to other diesels & destroyed them, form the inside out. This one, I think it actually runs BETTER....or could that just be my appreciation?

M61hops

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 07:51:11 AM »
Maybe it did seize but un-seized itself as soon as the heat input stopped?  I'd keep an eye on the oil in the crankcase in case the rubber O-ring seals melted or hardened up and allow water into the sump.  I always thought these engines might take something like this OK because of the cast iron piston and thick castings in general.  I hope your luck holds up!                      Leland
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dieselgman

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 10:33:53 AM »
They are pretty tough aren't they! The main thing to watch out for will be cylinder head cracks or other sources of water leakage, I'm sure you are keeping a close watch on her now!

If the same thing ever happens to others here, it is recommended to allow a slow and natural cool-down rather than shocking the system by a sudden and drastic temperature change as in immediately allowing the cooling water into the system while in an extreme overheat situation. Less risk of cracking castings this way.

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Combustor

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 11:01:35 AM »
          Just a query from the ignorant.  Why does the water valve need to be turned off unless, say, you were draining the block to avoid frost damage?   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Combustor.
Toys include- Lister CS 8/1, Lister VA SOM plant and some Aussie engines.
   "Old iron in the Outback" Kimberley, West Australia.

Incredilion

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 01:16:35 PM »
Combustor, it's thermosiphon, and unless you turn off a valve, it will circulate water through the engine, cooling the water (which is heating water for my house) all day long.

ronmar

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 04:49:21 PM »
SO is there one valve or 2 in your system?  Where is the valve/valves located?  Oh, and where exactly on the head did you shoot that 300F with the IR?

IF there is only one valve and it is on the intake line to the bottom of the cylinder, this might not have been as bad as you think it was.  IF the outlet line to the cooling loop was open, these things cool pretty well in "hopper mode", with the cooling water boiling up the outlet hose and carring away a large slug of heat. That coolant is replaced by fresh unboiled coolant flowing back in from the top to be reheated and boiled to repeate the process.  A thermostat in the outlet can hinder this by hindering the return of coolant, but if the head stays warm enough the thermostat will stay open to let coolant pass back into the cylinder.  Depending on where you measure the heat, I can get temps in excess of 300F on my head during normal operation.  I usually measure the temp right above the right flywheel(side with IP where I start the engine), about in the middle of the side of the head.  I have a little black dot where I aim the laser pointer, so I am measuring in a consistent location.  The green paint has a pretty good emissivity, but I usually shoot a spot of flat black spray paint in areas I take routine heat measurements on...
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

Tom

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 05:43:43 PM »
Perhaps a stupid question b...b...but, thermosiphon with out the thermo won't siphon correct? Are you getting a reverse siphon? If so maybe the easiest fix might be to add a thermostat to the upper outlet with no bleed hole. I ran the one in my 6/1 for quite some time with out one and it ran just fine. One bleed hole was later added to stop the gulping and then a 2nd hole was added when the 1st didn't fix it. I like an idiot proof fail safe system when I design things for my self.
Tom
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BruceM

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 06:20:22 PM »
+1 for idiot proofing by design or automation.  I'm that idiot all too often since a bout with encephalitis.

I'm got my 6/1 set up for auto shutdown for low/high oil,high temperature,vibration, rpm out of range. Saved my engine for low oil once, thus paying for itself many times over. 

I have full "manual reversion" with only the flip of a switch; the engine can be operated manually and generator head on the harmonic winding in case of total or partial electronics failure.  Most others, including Ron, I think, prefer systems that do auto shut down in case of any sort of electronics failure.  A case can be made for either.


Incredilion

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 09:55:26 PM »
Ronmar, there is (1) valve in the system, on the outlet side of the thermosiphon. It's about 25 feet or so away from my Lister, above the machine, and it was closed.
Now, that being the case, I am also wondering if what you said was exactly right; that there was water in the line PAST the thermostat, and what was happening was that teh engine got wwarm enough, tstat opened, HOT water flowed out past the cold water sitting in the line, and eventually the water left in the line mixed with the water in the jacket, and somehow also mixed with the water coming from the inlet, which is always opened.
Hmmm....I bet you're right, because literally, there's not a thing wrong with how that engine runs.
I took the heat from the valve springs, I don't have a cover for them, so they're open, and I can shoot them. The top of the head meausred 275+-, so I thought that teh 300 or so was about right. Normally, the head is around 190-200, so that was hot, at least to me.

I do have a themostat connected to the upper hole with no bleed hole, it does gulp; I'd like to fix this. Tom, where do I drill a hole, please?

And Bruce, how'd you hook up a failsafe on your Lister? As Schultz said..."verrry inttterrrestink".
 

Tom

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 10:33:52 PM »
On mine the holes did not help. Adding a ball valve to the lower hose and adjusting it closed a bit at time until the gulping stopped has worked perfect. The temp now regulates correctly under all conditions.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

ronmar

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 01:05:48 AM »
You add the holes around the edge of the outer disc, but inside the gasket/sealing surface of the thermostat housing.  It is basically so the fluid can flow around the valve plate, but leaves the valve action undisturbed.  The holes should work, but it may require more holes than one would think necessary. 

Basically what happens without holes is that the engine water gets warm, then hot, which causes the thermostat to open.  But the thermostat does not act all that fast, so the water temp peaks a little higher than opening point which forces the thermostat ALL the way open.  With good thermosiphon flow, that water then exits rapidly being replaced by much cooler water. Again, the thermostat does not close instantly, so the cylinder and head get completely filled with very cool water while the thermostat closes all the way shut.  This process will repeat untill the supply temp returning to the engines warms sufficiently to keep the thermostat from closing all the way which slows the process and allows the thermostat time to react. 

Adding holes at the thermostat allows some water to continously bypass the thermostat as it warms. This steady mixing of fresh/cold coolant slows/delays the rise in temperature so that it approaches the thermostat opening point slower and gives the thermost time to open just a little instead of flying wide open. Since the rate of change is slower, the thermostat gets time to react and control the temp instead of overreacting and sucking in a big gulp of cold water and slamming shut.   IMO, the thermostat should have enough holes so that it can bypass enough fluid to maintain the temp just below the thermostat opening point on an unloaded engine.  Then any added load will cause the temp to increase just that little bit extra to open the thermostat and temperature should be regulated from there.  If it is cycling, the thermostat probably dosn't have enough bypass holes.

The throttle valve on the loop does the same thing in that it limits the total coolant flow thru the engine and slows down the temperature change(cooling) and again allows the thermostat time to react.  This keeps the engine from gulping cold coolant when the thermostat opening is reached.  But since it is choking the coolant flow, it must be adjusted properly to allow just enough coolant to pass thru the engine under all load/environmental conditions.  It must also not be messed with except by someone knowledgable of how it is supposed to work.  If done incorrectly, it will create a similar situation to what you have just experienced(insufficient cooling).

Of the two, I think I prefer the bypass method with the holes.  First off, there will always be some flow, even if the thermostat sticks shut.  Second, it requires no operator intervention, and on a hot day with high load, the thermostat is free to open all the way and pass as much coolant as it thinks is necessary to remove the heat...       
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

bandmiller2

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Re: Ever done this? Yeah I'm a REAL genius. (NOT)
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 01:26:35 AM »
I always like to drill a small hole in the thermostat to let it burp when your filling or draining your system.Really though even with the valve closed you should have water/coolant in the head,dry and hot would be more of a problem. Frank C.
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