Author Topic: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi  (Read 15531 times)

Fred2

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Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« on: November 23, 2012, 12:37:34 PM »
Hi, I'm a new member, so thought I'd introduce myself and say thanks for having this forum at all, and thanks to those who contribute.

A bit of background. A friend and I have just taken on a Petter AC1 6HP diesel.  It has been modified for propelling a boat, with water cooled exhaust and a forward/reverse gearbox.

So I hope it's ok to start the ball rolling with the following:

1/ the data plate only says Type: AC1.,  BS: 6.00,"  the engine number and then "AC1" again
The manual says there's should be a year of manufacture, rotation direction and a build number. But none of these are there.
HOW CAN WE FIND OUT THESE DETAILS...?   So we can get parts and understand the workings.
I think it is an indirect injection model, ie: the injection nozzle goes into the side of the cylinder head. Is this right..?
It also has an onboard electric starter motor.

2/ the cylinder head is off and the piston head removed. The piston connecting rod when wiggled has quite a bit of sideways movement (about 4mm or more)... does this mean the big end bearing needs replacing...?

3/ Mechanics have told us that "no one wants these any more". They recommended that "much better/modern alternatives" are available for the use ours has been put to. But the alternatives they recommend look too heavy for our 70 year old 1/2 ton wooden boat. In principle, we would much rather stay with the petter, not least because we like old tech, as opposed to new tech. But the mechanics made us doubt : will the petter be reliable? and will it power the boat at least adequately in up to moderate seas? Any input/experience you guys have, or have heard of, would be greatly appreciated.

Any thoughts..?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 02:50:33 PM by Fred2 »

dieselgman

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Re: Piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2012, 01:38:23 PM »
Your 6 hp AC1 is a relatively high-speed unit (up to 3600 rpm) and I believe you have it right regarding Indirect Injection. That is all the information required to order parts.

There are thousands of these around (in North America) from the US Military but they are not of particular interest to most folks looking for small efficient diesels along the lines of a Lister. That unit may be fine in your application, but I have not seen any used in this manner before. But then again, I work far inland and do not supply too many boat propulsion engines - only a few parts on occasion.

Pull your connecting rod and inspect the bearing journal and bearing shell to identify actual condition. Some side play is to be expected but maybe not as much as you report.

Maybe some others here can add to my general comments... nothing wrong with the little Petter if it matches your application.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

listard-jp2

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Re: Piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2012, 05:48:03 PM »
That unit may be fine in your application, but I have not seen any used in this manner before.

Petter actually made watercooled versions of this engine for marine applications, it was known as the 'Petter mini 6', there was also a twin cylinder version using a watercooled version of the AC2 engine, and this was refered as the 'Petter mini twin'.

The achilees heel of these engines were the aluminium cylinder heads, combined with cast iron cylinder blocks, and raw water cooling. no matter how often you changed the sacrifical anodes the cylinder heads always suffered from corrosion.

Fred2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 02:44:35 PM »
Dieselgman : Hi. thanks for info on revs per minute. We were wondering how high our engine went in revs. Is that what produces the relatively high horsepower? We want to identify exactly what model we have as we were thinking of getting another identical engine to act as parts doner. And if the 2nd is a runner it would be a plus on the one we have, which came part dismantled. Surprised to hear so many in the US, we're in the land these were made and they turn up on ebay only occasionally. Will do as you suggest and remove the con rod, but so far the sump drain nut and other nuts are proving very difficult to remove. Any tips?

Listardjp2 : Hi, and thanks. We would have preferred the fully watercooled version, ours just has a raw water pump run from a pulley off the crankshaft extension and that water cools the exhaust not the head/cylinder. We're guessing it's a post production modification made by an enthusiast, as the cooled exhaust extension looks homemade (but solid). Our cylinder head isn't corroded and the iron cylinder looks fine. but I guess that's because we haven't got the water circulating there like the type you mention. Does that sound right?
Where were the sacrificial an nodes fixed?

Our gearbox(forward/neutral/reverse) has a data plate with only italian words on it. It bolts perfectly onto the main engine block, but does that sound like a petter make of gearbox? The petter manual refers to a "reduction" unit, by this do they mean a gearbox of their design?

The petter manual also shows a clutch device: does this just amount to being able to take the driveshaft off the flywheel into neutral?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 02:49:11 PM by Fred2 »

listard-jp2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2012, 06:43:53 PM »
We want to identify exactly what model we have as we were thinking of getting another identical engine to act as parts doner, and if the 2nd is a runner it would be a plus on the one we have, which came part dismantled.

Your engine is an AC1 series 1, as you mentioned in a previous post that it was indirect injection.

Will do as you suggest and remove the con rod, but so far the sump drain nut and other nuts are proving very difficult to remove. Any tips?

That's quite common to find, on one of these engines that has been in a marine environment, you may even have to resort to drilling the heads off the Allen capscrews, to be able to remove the sump.


We would have preferred the fully watercooled version, ours just has a raw water pump run from a pulley off the crankshaft extension and that water cools the exhaust not the head/cylinder. We're guessing it's a post production modification made by an enthusiast, as the cooled exhaust extension looks homemade (but solid). Does that sound right?

It sounds like your engine was originally watercooled, you can confirm this by refering to the serial number which will have ACW1 in it. Sounds like the previous owner converted it to air cooling, so as to be able to continue to use it. As the specialist water cooled parts are now well expensive to buy.

Where were the sacrificial an nodes fixed?

These are fitted in the watercooled cylinder barrel which you no longer seem to have.



Our gearbox(forward/neutral/reverse) has a data plate with only Italian words on it. It bolts perfectly onto the main engine block, but does that sound like a petter make of gearbox?

That is the correct g/box for that engine, it is Italian though the name escapes me. FYI the twin cylinder version has a Hurth mechanical gearbox fitted

The petter manual also shows a clutch device: does this just amount to being able to take the driveshaft off the flywheel into neutral?
Not sure what you mean by this, as you may be getting confused with the Borg and Beck clutch conversion for industrial applications.

Send me a PM as I have some sources for parts for these engines, also if your interested I have a ACW2 (mini twin that is almost complete, it is missing some very minor items such as glow plugs etc) that I would consider selling for the right money.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 07:11:40 PM by listard-jp2 »

Fred2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 03:05:16 PM »
Hi  Listard-jp2, and thanks for taking each of my questions in turn. Sorry for my slow response, I've been having some PC problems.

A series 1, that's worth knowing. Thanks. It's a shame that the data plate doesn't give a year of manufacture or a build number so that we can investigate which features/details it has and has not. I wonder why in this instance the data plate doesn't have that info? the manual says every data plate should list that info.

We've heard of the acW1 and 2, but our data plate doesn't include the 'W', just AC1. So, I'm guessing it wasn't designed to have the cylinder cooling. Although, if it was just the cylinder head that was different (with water in/out pipes), as ours is set up to run with a raw water pump already, perhaps we could get such a cylinder and have a quieter and cooler/smoother engine. Are those correct guesses and likely outcomes?

On the forum people talk of the direct top injector models (straight into the cylinder head top) being more reliable than the side injector model, like we have. If we just switched a top injector cylinder head for our side injector one, would that simply involve taking off the old head and bolting on the top injcetor head?

Drilling the allen cap screws sounds difficult. I'm guessing the allen screws are going to be hardened steel, not just aluminum. Do you guys know if the screws are hard metal to drill?. We'll keep trying the ordinary ways to get them lose, but it would be worth knowing if they're going to be hard to drill, just in case. Then we can get suitable drill bits.

Pleased to hear you say the gearbox we have is right for the engine model we have! (Have seen the same g/box now on a ?AC1 petter on utube - a newly gold painted engine running beautifully.) But I guess the parts for this Italian g/box aren't petter made... so where on earth would we find parts (eg: clutch plates)?

Thanks again.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 04:14:11 PM by Fred2 »

listard-jp2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 08:38:57 AM »

We've heard of the acW1 and 2, but our data plate doesn't include the 'W', just AC1. So, I'm guessing it wasn't designed to have the cylinder cooling. Although, if it was just the cylinder head that was different (with water in/out pipes), as ours is set up to run with a raw water pump already, perhaps we could get such a cylinder and have a quieter and cooler/smoother engine. Are those correct guesses and likely outcomes?

Looks like your engine was always the aircooled AC1 version, and previous owners may have 'added' parts from the watercooled version. If money was not a concern, then the water cooled parts you need will fit straight onto your existing crankcase. However in reality the money needed to achieve this would be significant, and been honest these mini six engines are an old design hence there are now better engine options out there. Specifically the specialist water cooled spares are becoming difficult to source, and these engines are not quite in operation when compared to a modern equivalent.

On the forum people talk of the direct top injector models (straight into the cylinder head top) being more reliable than the side injector model, like we have. If we just switched a top injector cylinder head for our side injector one, would that simply involve taking off the old head and bolting on the top injector head?

If your keen this modification is possible, and requires as a minimum the following: cylinder head with injector (this item is identical to the later Petter AD1 engine), direct injection piston, and cylinder head and barrel cowling.

It will work, but wont be ideal, as the later AC1 series 2 engines have a slightly different camshaft lobe profiles, if you really want to explore this option, the cheapest solution would be to buy a busted AC1 series 2 engine for the parts you need.
IMHO the later engines are no more reliable, they are slightly more powerful and slightly better on fuel consumption, on the downside when they become worn they can become difficult to start, as you have no oil priming facility on the later engines. Also they are noisier in operation been direct injection.

Drilling the Allen cap screws sounds difficult. I'm guessing the Allen screws are going to be hardened steel, not. Do you guys know if the screws are hard metal to drill?. We'll keep trying the ordinary ways to get them lose, but it would be worth knowing if they're going to be hard to drill, just in case. Then we can get suitable drill bits.

They are not hardened, but they are tough, it is possible to drill them with high speed steel drill bits, but with frequent resharpening, remember you just need to drill the heads off and no more.


Pleased to hear you say the gearbox we have is right for the engine model we have! (Have seen the same g/box now on a ?AC1 petter on utube - a newly gold painted engine running beautifully.) But I guess the parts for this Italian g/box aren't petter made... so where on earth would we find parts (eg: clutch plates)?

The gearbox has a wet clutch, and if its slipping, you should only need to adjust it, as for spares for these boxes your correct, this was an item that Petters bought in (same with the Hurth gearbox on the mini twins) I can only suggest a google search, as I have never needed any parts for the mini six gearbox

Fred2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 11:37:04 PM »
Thanks Listard for your specific and detailed replies.

Re the italian gearbox Petter used on the AC1 : can we simply unbolt it from the crankcase... or is there a danger of disloging or mis-aligning parts in the g/box or crankcase?  And If so, what precautions should we take first before separating the two?

Our g/box isn't slipping (not that we're aware of!), we just thought it would be prudent to think about parts for it before something breaks or wears out and we end up NEEDING them!   You mention you've not needed parts for your mini-six g/box... is yours the same as ours then... the italian forward/neutral/reverse type?

Thanks for all your points and pointers re the other issues; very helpful indeed in deciding what to do/tackle and what not to. It sounds like neither a direct injection modification, nor a watercooling modification will really be worth the cost or reap much benefit. If, as you describe, an indirect injection single-pot petter will be pretty noisy anyhow, and a direct injection version or 2 pot version of the AC will be even noisier, those options seem not worth pursuing.

Like Listard and DieselGman are helping here, I hope - if we stick with our AC1, that we can one day help others with our own practical experience of the engine. I've belonged to forums for other things and the level of discussion there was not as good as it is here.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 05:29:00 PM by Fred2 »

listard-jp2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 10:22:53 AM »
Re the Italian gearbox Petter used on the AC1 : can we simply unbolt it from the crankcase... or is there a danger of dislodging or mis-aligning parts in the g/box or crankcase?  And If so, what precautions should we take first before separating the two?

Separation of the engine and marine gearbox is not difficult, and there is no danger of parts been dislodged, or misaligned when you reassemble it. As these is a flex plate bolted to the flywheel, this has a splined hub, which engages with the input shaft of the marine gearbox.

Our g/box isn't slipping (not that we're aware of!), we just thought it would be prudent to think about parts for it before something breaks or wears out and we end up NEEDING them!   You mention you've not needed parts for your mini-six g/box... is yours the same as ours then... the italian forward/neutral/reverse type?

The Italian gearbox was the only version ever fitted, all I have ever needed was seals and bearings, which are available from any bearing stockist.


Thanks for all your points and pointers re the other issues; very helpful indeed in deciding what to do/tackle and what not to. It sounds like neither a direct injection modification, nor a watercooling modification will really be worth the cost or reap much benefit. If, as you describe, an indirect injection single-pot petter will be pretty noisy anyhow, and a direct injection version or 2 pot version of the AC will be even noisier, those options seem not worth pursuing.

I had seen your PM, and in light of your comments, which I quite understand, an AC2W might not be the way to go, however if you do decide to persue this option, this item on eBay may be of interest to you:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Petter-2-Cylinder-Marine-Diesel-Engine-c-w-gearbox-11HP-/200853788103?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&nma=true&si=KJ%2BcbT2WVQdc2dEm4X0P9CHVFOs%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


Fred2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2012, 12:47:19 PM »
Good news on ease of separation for g/box. Wasn't looking forward to realigning complex parts!

How many and what sort of bearings (locations & type) should we expect in the gearbox? Our manual doesn't show it at all - probably because it's a non-petter type g/box. Same question I guess for the seals? What should we be looking for inside bearings and seals wise, to get replacements?

Thanks for the heads-up on the AC2W. Seen the pics etc. It doesn't seem much bigger than the Ac1 really,  but I'm guessing the weight of the former could be quite a bit more than the latter. Would you think it was?

When was the AC2W last run?

listard-jp2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2012, 09:18:38 AM »
How many and what sort of bearings (locations & type) should we expect in the gearbox? Our manual doesn't show it at all - probably because it's a non-petter type g/box. Same question I guess for the seals? What should we be looking for inside bearings and seals wise, to get replacements?


From memory (it was a while ago) there will be 4 bearings and two seals, these are all metric dimensions and are common sizes.


Thanks for the heads-up on the AC2W. Seen the pics etc. It doesn't seem much bigger than the Ac1 really,  but I'm guessing the weight of the former could be quite a bit more than the latter. Would you think it was?


Its not going to be much more than the mini 6 version, as most of the extra mass is cast Aluminium, I would be guessing that it will weigh 30% more, two people can lift one with ease.

I have just found another one for you:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Petter-diesel-marine-engine-/181042657172?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a26fbb794

It might go for a song, as its never a good time to sell over christmas.

Fred2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 03:57:04 PM »
Hi and thanks for replys.

We spotted something called a FUEL LIFT PUMP in the handbook for the AC1, but it doesn't explain what it does that isn't done by the standard engine fueling components. One isn't fitted to our AC1 engine. So, if it isn't fitted as standard what does the FUEL LIFT PUMP do exactly? Can anyone tell us....

Metric dimesnions and common sizes for the g/box bearings sounds very handy. But I'm wondering how I will communicate what I need to a supplier of those... would the dimensions of the bearings and seals be stamped/printed on the items themselves in the g/box?

When you say bearings, would those be white metal shell bearings like those around the crank shaft... or are we talking balls or rollers in cage races, or something like that?

Thanks to for posting link to the one on ebay. 15 bids so far looks like it might push the price up though.

Hope your xmas plans are coming along, Listard and others. :)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 09:36:53 AM by Fred2 »

listard-jp2

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Re: Petter piston shaft movement?, model type? & Hi
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2012, 08:05:21 AM »
We spotted something called a FUEL LIFT PUMP in the handbook for the AC1, but it doesn't explain what it does that isn't done by the standard engine fueling components. One isn't fitted to our AC1 engine. So, if it isn't fitted as standard what does the FUEL LIFT PUMP do exactly? Can anyone tell us....

Unless your engine is provided with a fuel tank that fits directly on to the engine, it will need a lift pump, because as you would expect an engine mounted fuel tank gravity feeds the fuel to the fuel injection system. If however your fuel tank is remote from the engine, as would be normal practice for a mini 6 application, it will need a lift pump to suck the fuel from the remote fuel tank.

The lift pump is common to a host of other late Lister (TR, TS, LV, etc) and Perkins applications, however you will need a hardened steel pushrod to actuate the lift pump, this is an OEM Lister Petter part.

Metric dimensions and common sizes for the g/box bearings sounds very handy. But I'm wondering how I will communicate what I need to a supplier of those... would the dimensions of the bearings and seals be stamped/printed on the items themselves in the g/box?

When you say bearings, would those be white metal shell bearings like those around the crank shaft... or are we talking balls or rollers in cage races, or something like that?


Just take your old bearings and seals to the bearing stockist and he will match them up for you, your correct the gearbox bearings are roller bearings and not plain shell bearings.




Thanks to for posting link to the one on ebay. 15 bids so far looks like it might push the price up though.


No problem, here is a link to another one, this time a mini 6, it shows the lift pump quite nicely. It is unusual in that it is fitted with a Hurth gearbox, instead of the more usual Italian offering:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Petter-AC1W-6HP-Mini-Inboard-Marine-Engine-/160942444736?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_Boat_Engines_EngineParts_SM&hash=item2578ead0c0
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 08:15:43 AM by listard-jp2 »

jeepy

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Which type of Petter engine I have?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 10:22:37 PM »
Hi,everybody I'm a new member from Hungary / Budapest/

Please, help me!

Can you tell me which type of Petter engine I have? I don't have any marks or table for the type.  :(
The picture is in my profile picture.
Thank you!
mate.peterbp@gmail.com