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Author Topic: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!  (Read 13685 times)

Stevels

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World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« on: June 12, 2006, 08:50:15 PM »
???
After months of sitting, followed by weeks of building, today I am ready to start my brand new, Listeroid 12/2 for the first time.

Problem is I don’t know how.

Yeah, I know about the decompression levers, spinning the wheel, but where is the On / Off switch?  I mean the fuel pump switch, called the governor lever, I think?  Which direction is on?  It says nowhere?!  Is it with the lever  up or down?

Either way, my Listeroid does not start.

Please help!

Here is what I did.

1)   Put in fresh oil
2)   Put in fresh diesel
3)   Open fuel valve.
4)   Bled the fuel filter with the little bleed screw on the top of the fuel filter housing until my filter and fuel lines seemed filled with fuel, at least from the filter to the fuel tank.
5)   Set the Governor Lever UP (also tried down – don’t know which way is RUN?)
6)   Set both push rod blocker thingies so the rod can not come down and thusly, there is no compression.
7)   Crank the handle and spin the flywheels as fast as humanly possible, or to the point of near vomit.
8)    Flicked the closest decompression lever clear so compression is in one of the cylinders.
9)   Cranked even harder, since now one cylinder has compression.
10)   Sweat and pant.  No Listeroid seems to be starting.

I would expect one cylinder to pop a bit with life, and then I was planning on throwing the second decompression lever – but it does not start at all.

I do not know what I am doing wrong.  Any ideas?  Any advice would be great.  I am as green as  Lister!
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mobile_bob

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 08:58:12 PM »
do you hear the injectors going,,, click, click ... click?

probably not... so loosen the high pressure lines to bleed out the air as you crank the engine over with the
compression release lever set. after you get fuel up to the injectors, retighten them and try again.

if there is air trapped in those lines it will take forever to start.

others will chime in on fuel rack setting for run and shut down
bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Tom

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 09:19:34 PM »
On is with the lever down. And I'll second Bob g's advice to bleed the injectors. If you go to Utterpower.com you will find a good bit of info on what to do before you start this beast. George also produces a great CD with maint and operation tips, first and for most check the crankcase for sand before you start it up.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Stevels

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 11:21:56 PM »
Thanks guys, for the help!

After a bit more play, I did indeed find that ON is the lever down! I confirmed this by taking off the high pressure tube to the injector and seeing a drop of fuel with every click!

Now, the problem is that while I clearly see fuel getting to one of the cylinders, the other cylinder is as dry as bone.  I confirmed that fuel was making it up to the banjo bolt on the second injector pump, but so far, have not been able to get diesel to come out of the high pressure tube on the second cylinder. 

I may just need to crank it a bunch more, but what has me concerned is that I hear a little clicking on the injector pump that works, but I do not hear anything on the second injector pump.  Should I just wind it up more until I puke?

Should this engine be able to start with only one cylinder?

Thanks again 
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Halfnuts

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 11:25:04 PM »
Not a stupid question.  If you've ever started a new lawnmower, forget everything you learned during that experience!

You have to evict every bubble of air from the entire fuel system starting from the fuel tank, and ending at the injector.  Just like bleeding the brake lines in your car.
Best way to start is loosen up all the connections in the fuel system starting from the low pressure line going from the tank to the filter.  
Turn on the fuel valve at the tank.  If it's like mine was, it will immediately begin dripping, a problem you'll have to solve later.
When fuel begins running out the line at the entrance to the filter, tighten that fitting.
Open the air bleed valve on top of the filter.  When fuel begins running out with no more bubbles, tighten the screw.
Fuel should now begin running out the other fitting of the fuel filter, the one going to the inlet for the fuel injection pump.  Tighten it when the bubbles stop.
Watch the inlet to the fuel injection pump for bubbles.  Tighten when fuel with no bubbles comes out.  
Then, with the fuel shutoff lever in the DOWN (RUN) position crank the engine over and look for fuel to start bleeding out the connection to the injector.  When fuel with no bubbles comes out, tighten the fitting and crank the engine over and you should hear a "ping-ping"  sound every time the injectors fire.  If there is any air in the fuel system, you won't hear the sound, and the engine won't start.

If you don't get any fuel out of the injectors, take off the high pressure connector at the top of the fuel pump and crank the engine over and look for fuel to come out.  You can carefully lift the valve and spring from the pump and that should start the fuel flowing.  Sometimes there are a few bubbles that lodge in the pump that can't be removed unless you do this.
Then reassemble, reconnect the high pressure line, bleed the air out the fitting at the injector, and you should be good to go.

Make sure you keep an eye on the fuel pump shutoff lever at first startup.  If the engine starts running away or hopping, flip the lever up and get away ASAP, then figure out what happened.  Fuel rack sometimes sticks or governor doesn't function for one reason or another.  

The engine should start on one cylinder.  Then you flip the decompressor out and the second cylinder comes on line.

Halfnuts

« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 11:30:56 PM by Halfnuts »

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2006, 01:36:34 AM »
Thanks HalfNuts!

I will try that bleeding all the way through and see if it helps.  It seems that my first cylinder is fueled up fine.  I can see a drop of fuel being dispensed from the high pressure line with every click, but that second cylinder is still not giving any love.   It is dry so far.

I have read a lot about run away engines.  Should I really expect that a brand new motor, even an Indian one, should be horribly broken right out of the crate?

On that note, I am not exactly sure how to stop the engine.  ;D

Is it:
1)   lift the fuel pump lever
2)   slide over the decompression locks

If so, do I wait any amount of time between steps?

How much room should I give around the engine to start it the first time?  It is a bit tight in the garage.  The engine is mounted to a heavy steel frame, but 650 RPM of 1000 lbs of misbalanced flywheel is probably an ugly thing!

I know I have heard about these, but did your Lister fly away the first time you started it?

Thanks again!

Stevels

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sid

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2006, 02:23:37 AM »
all of you questions are normal and you have a right to be concerned..the advice I would give will be different from any one else..seek some one in your area that has an engine and spend some time will them and learn how to start and stop one..it just sounds like you have air in the system. it takes a long time to bled all the air out/ start at the top and work down.you could have one cylinder linkage out of adjustment but it just sounds like air.but be sure you know how to stop it before you start it.sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

Halfnuts

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2006, 04:06:55 PM »
Stevels,

Yes, you got it.  To stop the engine, flip the stop lever UP and when the engine slows down a bit, flip the decompression cams under the exhaust lifters.  In an emergency, you can also stuff a rag in the air intake. 

Re: starting, it looks like you get it.  You're trying to chase the air bubbles out of the fuel starting at the tank and proceding all the way to the injectors. 

On starting, if you can get one cylinder firing consistentlly, it should be able to carry the other "dead" cylinder.  You can then loosen the fuel injector line connector at the injector and the remaining air bubbles should be pumped out pretty quickly.  Then when you tighten the second connector, be prepared to flip the stop lever if the engine tries to run away or hop around.  Yours being a twin, that shouldn't be a problem, but be prepared for anything and always be thinking of what you should do if things go wrong.

As far as the engine running right out of the crate, don't make that assumption.  A number of folks on this forum have found the governor linkage didn't move freely because it was glued together with paint.  If you take the springs off and flip the stop lever DOWN, the linkage should move freely.  Scrape away any paint, and lubricate the linkage with WD-40, a few drops of diesel oil, or whatever you have until it moves easily.

Once you get your engine running, you need to make sure both cylinders are carrying their share of the load.  It's common for the linkage between the injector pumps to not be set up right, placing more load on one cylinder than the other.  Best way to make sure both are pulling evenly is by measuring the exhaust temperature next to the cylinider head using  either a thermocouple probe and a suitable DVM or an infrared thermometer.  Play with the linkages until the exhaust temperature is appx. equal on both cylinders and you're on your way. 

Next, you will probably have to track down leaks at fittings.  The fuel shutoff valve on the bottom of the tank is a troublesome kludge, and the Indian oil filter also seems to leak. 

I recently replaced all my fuel lines with flared steel tubing because I couldn't keep the Indian fuel lines from leaking and admitting air after the engine sat for a week or so, meaning I had to evict air bubbles out of my engine weekly.  Although the exercise was good for me, it didn't make for a reliable setup.

Remember, these engines aren't a turn-key solution by any means.  They're wonderful, funky old dinosaurs, but they take some tinkering with to get them set up right, and if you don't know what you're doing, or if you are careless, you can get hurt or worse.

Best of luck. 

Halfnuts

[edit]  Properly, the term "runaway" refers to an engine that continues to accelerate even after the fuel is shut off.  Sometimes oil can be drawn past the rings, or sucked out of an oil-impregnated air filter causing the engine to take off when you aren't expecting it to.  It's a good idea to do your first start with the air filters off and a couple of rags handy that you can stuff into the air intakes, should the engine continue running even after you have flipped the STOP lever up.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 04:11:39 PM by Halfnuts »

mobile_bob

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2006, 06:20:12 PM »
also you might remove the high pressure line to the injector that doesnt seem to be firing or getting fuel, and check to see
if there is a plastic plug in the line or fitting!!

we found that on an indian petteroid recently, my buddy cranked on the girl for about 2 hours before finding that very problem.

make sure there are no obstructions or plastic caps in any of the lines. or you will crank forever and never get it to run on that cylinder, if you indeed get it to start at all.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Stevels

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Mission Accomplished
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2006, 07:16:27 PM »
Thanks every one!  I did it!

With your help, I got the Listeroid started for the first time.

It now starts up easily every time.  I will post a MPG of it, since I now have a question about the balance of the flywheels.

Thanks again!  Another Listeroid is running in the world!

Stevels
Converting everything I own to run on WVO

dkwflight

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2006, 12:15:36 AM »
Hi
Congratulations!!
Now you will have to make sure the cooling system is right.
Then get a load on the engine. These engines won't break-in properly with out a load of some kind. They will slobber oil out the exhaust.
You might have to go back and loosen the nuts on the injecter end again to get the last bit of air out. You can do one cyl at a time when the engine is running.
Keep checking the water temps to the bottom and from the top. Untill you are satisfied there is flow in the right direction.
Being a twin you will need to balance the rack to get the same temps from the exhust. An infared thermometer helps but is not the most acccurate. An exhaust pyrometer is but probably not worth the investment.
Check and recheck every thing as you go.
Put several magnets in the sump before you run this thing much!
I sucked the oil out of the sump after each run for three or four runs to make sure there was no sand or any thing else in the sump. I finally pulled the oil pump apart and the screen from the sump. The screen had bits of string on it from the make shift gaskets the indians make from string.
The oil pump didn't prime it self very well untill I got new balls and lapped the seats. pay attention to where the balls go and which spring goes where.
Several commercial bearing houses carry loose steel balls or will order them.
When I pulled the lower water manifold I found a circular piece of iron from? inside the manifold. Also a good time to put a small grinder to work to open the water passages.
Don't run the engine for more then a few minutes without cooling water, You can warp the heads!
Dennis
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 12:29:53 AM by dkwflight »
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

GuyFawkes

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2006, 01:08:35 AM »
I want to add something.

Chances are you've never been around external flywheels before, don't treat them (and the belts) with caution, treat them with fear, if a spanner drops into the flywheel it will come out at 60 mph, mebbe straight into your head, if your clothing gets dragged in expect to lose a limb and probably bleed to death on the spot in under three minutes.

It is all to easy to focus on what you are doing and where your eyes are and not where your body is.

If at all possible and your climate allows it, wear well fitting cotton shorts and well fitting cotton tee shirt.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Halfnuts

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2006, 02:26:57 AM »
Unexpected things happen, too:

I recently got tagged with a gib key that worked its way out of my flywheel.  It bounced off the engine bed and hit a spoke and flew up and hit my rippling rock-hard abs.   ;)  Left a deep triangular divot.  Had I been standing back only another inch or so, it could have hit me in the face or throat or under my jaw.  I make it a practic to never stand in-line with the flywheels.  In a permanent installation some type of guard as is commonly used to cover the pulleys and belt on air compressors is on my "to-do" list.

Halfnuts

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More World’s Stupidest Lister Questions!
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2006, 05:55:01 AM »
Funny, instinctively I “feared” these flywheels!  Something about many hundred pounds of cast iron spinning at 650 rpm, with 12 HP behind them makes me wonder why more people don’t die from these things! 

I have another question for wise men here.  There seems to be a balance problem with the flywheels.  Imagine that, an engineering imperfection in my Indian motor!  The flywheel on the right seems to be in better true than the one on the left (the one I crank).  The left flywheel seems to be slightly off true, and running slightly eccentric, as if the main rod is very slightly bent.  This is causing the motor to shake a whole lot more than I would think it should. 

I would estimate that the wheel oscillates between about 1/8” to 3/16” off center when spinning.  What has me more concerned is that I am planning on attaching my generator pulley to this flywheel.  If I attach my generator pulley to this fly wheel, will I have bad things happen to my generator bearings?  How about the belt?  Is this margin of erro normal?

I have included a link to a large mpeg, but it is a big file (9MB) and I don’t even think it illustrates the “off true” of the fly wheel very well, since it is very slight -- it does not show up on the video very well.  Regardless, I have included it here in hopes that perhaps someone with a fast internet connection may take a glance at it and let me know if the engine seems to be within “spec” for a Listeroid.

Click for Mpeg of my eccentric Listeroid

I am hoping that this wobble is normal for these engines and that everyone’s does this, and still works fine with the ST gen head.

I won’t even entertain trying to straighten the main shaft to a better tolerance than it is now.  There is no way I can do that type of work.  Has anyone tried to better balance the flywheels with weights? 

Talk about scary!  Lead weights attached to the flywheels…. this is a projectile waiting to happen.

Thanks!

Stevels
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Geno

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Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2006, 01:03:09 PM »
I'm NOT one of the wise men but I don't see the engine walking in the video and if its not than its not that out of balance. If the hole in the hub of the flywheel isn't centered I don't think there is anything you can do about it. A loose fit on the belt and a belt tensioner might reduce strain on the bearings if you have to use that flywheel. If the ends of the crank are turning true the crank isn't bent. My static balance showed 330 grams needed on each flywheel almost opposit from the cast in flywheel weights. Haven't had a chance to run it since then though.

Thanks, Geno
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 02:38:11 AM by Geno »