AT LAST THE TRUTH!

[fuddyduddy]

OK Kur,
Sorry, we'll miss you. NOT!

Will have to go back a long way, about 24 minutes from your "mother earth" post to your promise, etc.

Let's go back to that wonderful post at 11:28 tonight, June 17, 2006. In part you say "mother earths vital tectonic plate luberacant be being tapped"

Now I WILL make a couple of assumptions here.

 I assume you mean that "mother earths vital tectonic plate luberacant" is oil. I will also assume that by "luberacant" you mean lubricant, and that your MEANING is that crude oil acts as a lubricant for "Mother Gaia" and her tectonic plates.

 Let us please harken back to our early school years, and remember that there are three types of tectonic plates.

The first are divergent, mainly under the oceans, and I don't think oil helps them when they are pulling apart. I also doubt that there is much oil there.

The second are convergent, which push into each other (meet), and one is subducted under the other. I seem to remember that these subduction zones start at around 50 miles depth and may go to as much as 500 miles in depth, which is into the mantle.  Sorry Kur, oil won't be of any help here, either.

The third type is transform fault, which are plates that slide past each other. Wow, this must be what you meant!! OOPS, sorry,
just remembered that the plates are around 50 miles thick, and the bottoms of those plates are very hot, well above oil's ability to stay oily. DRAT!

Kur, please let me tell you that tectonic plate motions have been around for some 2 1/2 BILLION years on this Earth, and that is well before we had a lot of oil being produced.

Perhaps you made that foolish comment (yes, lie), because you read somewhere that seismic instruments used for oil-field exploration are also used for geophysical studies to determine seismic reflection profiles (tectonic plate junctions, etc).

Let us please take one last example. The outer crust, or lithosphere, has volcanoes in some places. Ever hear of the "ring of Fire, Kur Dog? That volcanic action is caused by (mainly) under-sliding oceanic (tectonic) plates. If indeed, oil helped lubricate these volcanoes' plates, at least some would be present in the lava. OOPS, that can't be! Lava is around 2,000°F, and at that temperature, oil turns back to carbon. No "luberacant" there!

In short, it is crap, just llike a lot of what you say. You may mean well, but you "hijkack" this group and their reporting on many occasions. Am sure if I have mis-stated information on plate tectonics that there is a geologist or volcanologist who will correct me. That would be good, for they report truth, not innuendos, lies, and half-baked assumptions as you do.

Fuddy Duddy

[fuddyduddy]

PS,
It takes a REAL man to post and not retract as you did, Kur Dog.

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love , Darren

[mobile_bob]

i am curious,,, if we plant all this land to oil seed, how much oil from either dino or vegie is it going to take to break out the land
disc it, prepare it, plant and harvest it?

perhaps in all the discussion there were figures state in the equation that i missed.

also i think what was stated was in a perfect world which we do not live in.

what about weather patterns?

what about some frigging bug, mold, or whatever that would likely mutate to take advantage of all this new oil crop and serve to
destroy it.

oh, and yes,,,, if this is an oil crop it stands to reason that it would be highly flammable in the field at near harvest time....
can you imagine the scale of a grass fire sweeping across very large expanses of land

i dont think in reality vegie oil (from seed)is ever going to reach over about 10% of our energy requirement,  sad but true.

what probably would work is a series of 10 percenter's,, all helping toward the goal of engery independance.

following on FD statements

increase neuclear to add an additional 10 percent.

increase coal gasification to add an additional 10

oil seed to add 10

maximise wind and maybe get another 10

work down the price of solar and get another 10

open up anwar, and get at least 10 for 30 years

open up off coast of california and florida get another 10

increase alcohol production and get another 10

give tax breaks to those that produce alt power
ie, methane, wind, cogeneration, etc
perhaps at peak might be equivalent to another 10

oh yes,,,, and make it mandatory that every house hold
has a listeroid, and tell the EPA to butt out
the result would be another 10  

bottom line is just as every thing else in life, no one source is going to save us
no matter how much we like it.

bob g

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love , Darren

[mobile_bob]

ok i will bite

"From my stand point If it took a billiontrillion gallons to harrow, seed , fertilize and reap but saved just ONE young soldier's life it would be more than worth it."

i understand the liberal view point as it pertains to fighting wars for oil, but that is only so much horse crap.
only a very simplistic outlook would lead anyone to assert that we are fighting for oil, sure it maybe part of the equation, but hardly the major
overriding component.

the radical left in this country beats the drum continuously about Bush waging war for oil, and in the second breath says no way to drilling in the anwar.

one soldiers life?  i too place a high value on human life, far higher than a snail darter or spotted owl for sure.

also you might take into consideration the mortality rate of young males in this country in or our of the military. i would hazard a guess that just as many single males die in accidents (both of their own making and not)  per capita in the civilian population as in the military action in iraq per capita.

i also doubt seriously that the prevailing attitude by those inlisted men and women think that they are there for oil and not to liberate the country and help to stabilize the region and also slow the senseless killing.

"I cant see the crops being anymore flamable than soybean or corn."

well alot of corn is processed green and the grain has a low oil content, and soy has a hard shell to help contain the oil in a fire.
also you are talking about a billion acres of rape seed, planted everywhere

you mention pastures and other available ground to plant the stuff.  pastures usually are very poor places to grow crops, they will support grass for grazing, but usually are too rocky, sandy, hilly or some other reason  or most farmers would have broken the ground out anyway long ago.

then of course you have a whole nother  group of enviro whacko's that will defy you the use of pasture or grasslands to plant your oil crop, don't believe me?
try putting up a windgenerator in chase county kansas, oh hell no!  not in their back yard! destroying their vista's

also in might be good to add, that there are cyclic droughts that leave you not only without a grain harvest but in worst case nothing to hold the soil, wind errosion leaves the ground barren,  just take a look at history of the dust bowl years.

"Coal strips our beautiful land screws up the water table and is just no good."

perhaps that was the case in years past, but i am sure with all the reg's now there are economically viable ways of doing it without leaving a shit hole.

"Wind is better than the other two but still takes about a decade to recoupe the energy used in making the turbine."

i dont understand how you balance your claim, somehow vegie oil is the cure all in your books. you fail to consider all that is involved in actually doing it on a large scale, although you seem able to understand all that is considered in energy from other sources.

in order to plant the billions of acres of oil seed to do what you support, there will be a huge, monumental outlay of money, energy, material and manpower, that not only will have first costs, but ongoing costs.

sure it doesnt seem to take much energy to raise an acre of rape seed, but when you consider all the costs as i have said before, in breaking out the land, preparing it, planting and harvesting. add to that all the fuel, depreciation on equipment, interest on the money either borrowed or invested, all the money, manpower, energy etc. etc.. in producing the equipment to plant and harvest, ship, store, process, reship, restore and distribute, etc. etc.  you should come to the conclusion that it isn't a panacea or a cure all.

vegie oil is an option but will be no more a significant player than hydrogen in our lifetime.

there just isn't enough ground to do the job, at least within reasonable economics.


"Canola oil is easier to harvest than crude MUCH less enviromentally destructive there are only two steps in refining rape seed to oil."

well i think the jury is still out on this one, first of all there already is good science behind crude, refining, and distribution.

we really don't know yet whether or not there are particulate that might be deemed cancer causing if not to human perhaps a spotted owl.
but believe you me, i would bet if vegie oil becomes even a 10 percent player in the nations energy source, there will be an enviro group that will find a
problem with it, and enlist the EPA to either ban it or severely regulate it.

you say its clean, i say it smells clean, and intuitively i would also say it appears to be cleaner than dino fuel, but i don't have the test equipment to say for sure
that it truely is, and i don't have a crystal ball that will tell me what sort of testing that might show something quite alarming in 10 years time.

Big vegie oil is not going to happen without alot of money being spent to research all the possible hazards before hand. So where is little veggie oil going to get the
money to research it and become big Veggie oil?

hmmmm

bob g

[rgroves]

Gentlemen, I love watching the dawgpile building here.

But I would remind you that Gaia Boy's words are best characterized by William Shakespeare in Macbeth

"A tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."


Very truly yours

Russell Groves

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love , Darren

[Ironworks]

Don't mean to horn in on the post, but did anyone see Dateline.....there was this Hindu guy saying he could get ethanol produced from praire grass here in the US for $.70 a gallon.  Guess he was one of the founders of Sun Microsystems.  He was suppose to have a meeting with Bush the week following the Dateline interview.  Funny I haven't heard anymore about it since....lol. 

[SHIPCHIEF]

I'm thinking about the great Irish potato famine.
Seems like anytime nature is pushed too hard one way, it pushes back. If the Environmentalists didn't freak out and stop the wholesale destruction of wild prarie lands for oilseed crops (and they would) Eventually some blight would attack them and a rear guard action to fight it would increase the cost by an amount no one can foresee. These are the unintended consequences I always rant about.
(I always laff when liberals fight liberals. When the Greenpeace activists were fighting the Macaw indians over the right to harvest whales I saw co-equal liberal forces at battle. Political correctness amok. The tone shifted against geenpeace when they ran their boat over a whale----until the Indians used a GUN!, then the media all shifted automatically to anti-gun mode.)
Guy posted earlier about the calorific input per unit of food produced. I forget all the details just now, but the jist of it was that the gallons of fuel per acre over the cropcycle are pretty high, and had increased steadily over the years with 'modern farming' and the machinery involved. 90 gallon havested oil (minus) (X) gallons cultivation, harvest, rendering, and transportation. So factor that into the bottom line and refigure the acreage required. Corn ethanol suffers from this as well.
We have had easy petroleum for all our lifespans, but in the past it was different. energy and lubricants were a wide variety of what was available and it was alot more expensive that oil, that's why oil took over. IT'S CHEAPER! But when it runs low, it will get more expensive, and the natural laws of economics will cause people to seek out new energy sources like they did before WW1. Maybe some of it will run in your Lister-oid. Rapeseed oil will find it's economic niche and Darren will eventually find out what it is really worth. Government meddling will upset the ballance of economic nature. Personal initiative and small buisnesses start the good stuff.
Ethanol from cheatgrass sounds OK as a portion of the wide spectrum of fuels that will make up our future. Perhaps it will be blended into gasoline and we will still buy it from the pump, pissing and moaning the whole while about big oil and politicians that require ethanol in fuel to support local farmers.
My point here is that the liquid fuel infrastructure is so well established that any new fuel will need to be taylored to fit the pipes / trucks / railcars / pumps / stations that we have spent the last century setting up. If breeder reactors powered the nations grid, they would use excess power to make synthetic gasoline and diesel so it could be distributed and used with out bankrupting the world to build a new distribution network.
Scott E

[mobile_bob]

one also has to consider the cyclic nature of harvest, we would have basically all this rape seed being harvested over a fairly short period (perhaps 3 months). Storage would be a huge problem not only for the mass amounts of grain but the bulk storage of the oil would be emmense.

unlike dino oil which is processed on a much shorter cycle, distribution closely follows production.

there are literally dozens of issues that would be very expensive to overcome.

all of these issues have energy requirements of their own.

alot of energy to build massive amounts of storage for grains and oils, massive amounts of energy to produce the impliments for cultivation, planting, harvesting and shipping the grain. massive amounts of energy required to build the presses and refineries to get the oil out of the grain, and then massive amounts of energy required to deal with the left over mash byproduct.

not saying it can't be done, just saying there is alot more to be considered.

bob g

[Firebrick]

kyradawg,
I hope someone or even a group of people that are active on the page live close to you to ***everyone please use his/her imagination, I certainly don't want this to be moderated***.  I served in this current war and lost two friends over there.   You are spitting in my face and on the graves of those who have died by saying this war is fought over oil.  To bad the media only shows the bad and not the millions men, women, and children that are happy to be out from the oppressive and sadistic leadership of the Sunni's.  Mobil bob is correct about the death rate to.  Statistically we were less likely to die in Iraq than we were in the US because of just auto accidents.

Second,   The majority of prairie/grassland/range/pasture in the united states is that because nothing, that is right, nothing else is more suitable to grow there.  Those numbers include most of the western united states, where cattle can be grazed only in the spring after the snow melts/spring rains(some places it takes 100 acres to graze one steer).  It is too dry to farm, tilling would make the soil moisture evaporate even faster. Most of the areas that grow winter wheat use this window of wet weather but other crops growth cycle do not match the weather.  Irrigation is not an answer as they are already pumping water out of the lakes, rivers, and ground faster than they can replace it.  Some places in California and Arizonian where they have irrigated, the government is shutting them down because they need the water for the huge amount of people that are moving to phoenix and san diego/LA.   It also includes millions of acres that are in hilly country, high mountains, and other areas that erosion would remove the top soil unless the grass is there to hold it in place.  The amount of natural gas used to produce nitrogen fertilizers is enormous and guess what, it comes from the oil wells.  The vegetable oil would go rancid and turn acidic in storage for more than a few months.  New pumps would have to be installed. People would not accept the inconveniences and it would require converting to biodiesel, making the energy inputs about equal with regular oil. 

Third, if you are such a "master" mechanic of 17 years then why cant you afford a lister.  Mechanics of all kinds are in high demand and the average salary is over 38000 dollars, which with your level of experience should be over that.  If we are to believe you about the major and expensive modifications you are doing to your motorcycle, truck, who knows what tomorrow, you surely have enough to purchase an inexpensive lister.  Are you positive you are not a 17 year old kid on summer break with to much time on your hands?

War&Hate  firebrick  (not really, just being sarcastic)

[GerryH]

FuddyDuddy
You noticed the tectonic plate lubricants, eh?
I am in the mining industry, and not a geologist, but when we want a chuckle we view these posts.
You have purty well nailed it in the tectonic plates.Thank your lucky stars that NO oil is accumulated below 18,000 ft in the earth, a few good miles above the magma the plates float on. That would cause a few freaking earthquakes and when the volcanoes came up it would be fun, too. Notice I didn't say found or produced, thats another thread. As I live in both the richest oil area in North America, and one of the largest canola growing areas, I feel like commenting.
 I find your math solid, that said, I think alternative energy sources and veg oil are a way to augment a farm income. There is also opportunities to use non-edible oil producing plants, we don't need to eat it all. Some of these may produce more then canola.
Oil from a home source offers a price counterbalance and national security.
I always find it interesting that the environmental, liberal, great warming crowd has always carefully stated that " the earth is warmer today then it was 600 years ago"
True. Why careful?
It is colder today then it was 700 years ago. 700 years ago Lief Ericson sailed the Northwest passage and established a colony on Greenland that supplied food to Denmark for 125 years.( and carefully documented it) As the weather got COLDER, crops started to fail, and the Black plague killed 40% of Denmark Citizens (customers) the colony died out.
Today, we still can't sail the Northwest passage, and I sure don't think you gonna be farming in Greenland any time soon.
Piece,love and all that

Gerry

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love , Darren

[rgroves]

For anybody who's interested in real world information about canola as a farm product, here's a link to a story in Sunday's business and farm section of the Wichita Eagle.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/business/14843797.htm

Since I am in the business of selling oilseed presses,  I talk to a lot of guys who are getting interested in growing their own fuel crops.  There are damn few of them who can find their way to production, and even fewer of them who have any notions of getting large enough to supply the neighbors.  Even the biggest risk takers among farmers would not consider trying to grow oil crops by breaking out pasture, CRP, or marginal land.  The potential earnings are far outweighed by the potential losses in equipment, time  -- and especially, in tillable soil.  Highly erodible land can turn into waste land in a hurry if you try to till it.  At that point, you just as well strip mine it, or sell it for development. 

Quick note to Kyradawg.  Every few years, us here in flyover country hear some liberal pinhead agronomist or social engineer tell us how he knows better than we do how to manage our farm resource.  10 years back it was the Poppers, from fucking Rutgers in goddam New Jersey, who declared that we should all just move out of the Great Plains and let them turn it into a "Buffalo Commons"  Mostly it's blather, and we point and laugh.

Occasionally it looks more serious, like a property grab.  Then a lot of us, more than you will ever see on the news,  make silent plans to lock and load.

rg