Author Topic: AT LAST THE TRUTH!  (Read 39926 times)

GuyFawkes

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2006, 01:36:43 AM »

In "the day" castor bean oil was used in race car and motorcycle engines because it was the best. The old timers told me that they had to take the engines apart at the end of the season to clean out the scum that the oil left.

We used to run Castrol R years ago, smelt beautiful, reason being that was before synthetic oils, and for high performance air cooled engines it was better than anything else available at the time, though as you say, every year you had to clean out the inside of the engine to get rid of the "varnish" and gunk, no great problem, especially for me, the BSA singles would blow big ends every six months anyway.

Another problem was mix *anything* with "R" and you made margarine slime inside the engine.

Now synthetic oils are used in them, because they blow away the old "R", though I have been known to add a capful to the petrol now and again "to lube the valves" but might just have been to get the smell again.

If there is one thing a Lister CS ain't, it is a high performance engine, at 3.75 BHP per litre it fell one hell of a long way short of the B44, which was less than 100 BHP / litre.

A B50, v similar bike


These (suzuki 750) are now running about 170 BHP / litre in hot road trim.


Don't forget, a huge job of oil is thermal transport, the old CBX 6 cylinder honda circulated the entire oild capacity every six seconds when "on song", 3.75 BHP / litre is so far away from all this it is a different planet, straight non detergent 40 weight will be instant death to one of these modern bike engines, but powered me all over europe one one of these


with total reliability, but that was "only" 65 ish BHP from 1200 cc, so 55 per litre, only 14 or 15 times a CS, and only had issues needing an oil cooler or rest periods during things like summer in athens traffic, ticking over in 40 celcius ambient and no wind to cool her off.

Modern oils are too good, they don't perform adequately at the levels listers work at, that suzuki engine above puts out more bhp/litre at tickover than the CS, the HD was in the same ballpark which is why 40 weight worked well in it.

Most important point here is even back then (or now, cos you can still buy it) Castrol R was MOST CERTAINLY NOT straight oil from the press, it had a hell of a lot or refining and filtering.

There was a big scandal when I was in spain, these guys were selling straight veg oil as cooking oil, it's the same stuff, right?

Nope, caused huge health problems and caused more than a few fires and other problems, even though those using it couldn't tell by sight, smell or taste, that there was anything wrong with it.

Some day, with luck, we will have an oil technologist who was spent his working life in lube oil buy a lister and sign up here, and I will bet you anything including my lister he is not going to recommend straight veg oil as a lubricant, not because he is "big oil", but because it does not go anywhere near lube oil specs when put through the proper lab tests.

Look at the thread I posted about facts and figures, 5000 hours on a CS 6/1 will get you somewhere between 3 and 5 tons of fuel, and this is the lightest loaded engine you will find, when someone does a ___documented___ 5000 hours on their lister on straight veg oil for lube, then shells out 500 bucks for a full lab lube oil analysis and publishes results, and those results back up these claims, I will listen. Until then I'm listening to 70 years of lister experience, hey, they HAD all these oils back then too, and sticking with straight 40 weight mineral non detergent, same as the old HD.

Gonna close with a pertinent quote.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rpg52

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2006, 03:01:38 AM »

Halfnuts quote:  "Yeah, saw a bunch of sunflower fields, too.  These were low-growing plants with very small bright yellow flowers.  Canola's pretty common, so I guessed that might be it."

My guess is safflower - short plant, about 1'+ tall, bright yellow flowers - sunflower relative.  Usually only grown in dryland farming areas (e.g. wheat).  Canola = rapeseed, a cabbage relative, usually needs summer water, usually dark green leaves like broccoli.

Used to grow it on dryland farms in California too.
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

Halfnuts

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2006, 05:42:39 AM »
Sunflower, safflower, where will it all end?  Safflower.  That was probably it, because it was most assuredly dry ag.  Read the canola is usually irrigated and in that part of KS there wasn't any irrigation that I could see.  It was a pretty sight.  Kept thinking how happy the bees must have been in that field.

Halfnuts

kyradawg

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2006, 05:56:53 AM »


http://www.renewablelube.com/

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 01:47:03 AM by kyradawg »

kyradawg

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2006, 04:42:05 PM »
(PLEASE)

http://www.renewablelube.com/

Peace&Love , Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 01:46:24 AM by kyradawg »

GuyFawkes

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2006, 05:57:08 PM »
Shameful repost (killer veggie lube info)

Guy,

The new gsxr1000 is making 180hp @ the crank it's my dream bike!

Here's a slightly modified version of thr 05-06 http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/523816/

If that oil pro didnt reccomend veggie based oil he's an idiot!

Check out these folks, all veggie based lubes WITH lab testing results click on the pdf files.

There patents date back to the mid 90's and I have copies if anyone would like to help me de-cipher their formulations (PLEASE)

http://www.renewablelube.com/

Peace&Love , Darren

posting it twice don't make it any better.

In the real world a skilled rider riding my bike


will wipe the ass of anyone riding a gixxer, simply because most people can't ride skillfully

I've had this argument with people back in the day when the Z1 was king, and over a 2000 miles "race" from the UK to athens there was nothing in it, and I was on a 1975 shovel with *tall* gearing.

New bandits have a petrol pump to petrol pump range of 80 miles, back in the day you had to do something really stupid like fit a 1.1 gall peanut tank to a bike to do that little.

Everyone round here knows my bike, they also know it is a LOT faster than it looks "like being slung down the road on a tea tray" because it is light and small and very very low COG with or without a rider, despite a "puny" 60 bhp and tall gearing, anywhere I stop people young and old will talk (young bikers ask WTF is it) and they also know it doesn't eat a set of expensive tyres every 3000 miles if you look after them, doesn't break down for a passtime, etc etc etc. Dirt cheap to run.

------------------------

The second link to the ace veggie oil gurus, looked at the pictures of their "lab" and laughed out loud, dude, a couple of hundred bucks worth of suprlus lab glassware from ebay would have the safe effect.

Their site reads like a couple of members posts, lots of breathless excited hype, complete and utter absence of documented test results, machine results were obtained on, machine calibration, etc etc

In the computer world we have shite like tom's hardware, they'll review anything they can get for free and wank all over how good it is, use graphs incorrectly to highlight insignificant points they are trying to stress, not a one of them counts calories or does proper industry grade tests of benchmarks.

oooh look, a thousand monkeys just flew out of my ass, and 85% of them said orange juice was better than DOT5 brake fluid.

I hear area 51 have alien technology batteries with a greater energy density than diesel, millions of charge discharge cycles, and superconductors to recharge em in the same time it takes to fill a tank, but thr rockerfeller illuminati are supressing this superior technology.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2006, 06:22:29 PM »
Guy:
Nice, 920 SJ ? Rare here in the Pacific Northwet. I ride to work on the XS650, (The best twin the Brits never built). I totally agree with your philosophy of motorcycles.
Although I have a 18 yr old harley and a ural with a chair, I really love digging around town on my lightened $250 yamaha. Did I mention it was cheap? Not after I rebuilt the suspention and put new Metzler lazetecs on it. I'm adding dual discs on the front from an XS1100, etc. It's too fun!
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

kyradawg

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2006, 06:28:01 PM »


Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 01:44:25 AM by kyradawg »

bitsnpieces1

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2006, 09:50:26 PM »
  Gingerly, gingerly here.  At some point the ?10 million? year old petroleum will runout.  Absolute physical guarantee.  At some point ?10 million? year old coal to make synthetic oil from, will run out.  Absolute physical guarantee.  So, we need to be be working toward some type of renewable source for the the same type of lubricants.  Fuel's nothing big, we'll have "Back To The Future" fusion engines for everything.  But, you still need something to keep two pieces of metal from rubbing against each other and wearing out. 
  Dino based oils are preferable because they come from a known dependable source rather than something that will vary from acre to acre.  Makes it a lot easier to get same properties in each batch, whomever you buy it from.  Makes really good economic sense and allows for the 'idiot' factor.  All you have to do is convince them to keep an eye on the level and top it off, let the pros handle changing it. 
  Switching to bio-based will take a long time and a lot of effort plus using you noggin for something other than hanging your face on.
  That said, I think almost everyone here fits into the non-facehanger category.  I'm perfectly willing to use dino based while it's here but, will play with anything else.  I'm aiming at using the tallow from my steaks and the lard from my bacon plus whatever else is out there to power (fuel/lube) my mower and bike instead of stinking up a landfill.  Even the best electric motor still has bearings that need lubing.  My personal belief is that slower moving is better than faster moving, just try running everywhere you go instead of walking, gets old fast.  Remember it's E=MVsquared, faster takes the squared input of energy.  2,000 rpm piston energy dump is a whole lot more than twice 1,000 rpm piston energy dump is a whole lot more than twice 500 rpm piston energy dump. 
  End of rant.  I'm looking at doing what testing I can.  That's why I wanted a start on test equipment and procedures.  Les
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

GuyFawkes

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2006, 12:18:35 AM »
-WHEN- dino fuel and lube runs out, pray we don't need replacements like veg based, because if we do we are still using the same tech, and if we are doing that then anarchy will rule, significant proportions of the population will die, and countries will cease to be.

We simply do not have the arable land on the planet to grow enough veg to replace dino at todays levels, not unless you wanna starve, which will be just as well because the more intensive you make agriculture the more energy inefficient it becomes.

I don't think anyone can do basic math any more, or understand simple english words like "finite"

I know for a fact everyone has a "me" centric world view, if you are a homeowner who works in an office and drives 40 miles to work you think that you and people like you account for "most" of the oil / energy consumed, not even close.

Run the numbers

USA uses in excess of 20 million barrels a day, barrel is 42 gallons, 840 million gallons a day, current USA population is 298 million, so that's near 3 gallons a day, except lots of those people don't drive, like babies etc, less than 1 in 10 drive, which is why there are 20 million vehicles registered in the USA, so that's 30 galls a day, every day, 7 days a week

Americans are not putting 210 gallons, or a ton of fuel, into each and every vehicle they own, every single week, an independent trucker would do it, just maybe

==========================

If you, as an individual, absolutely NEED say 25 gallons a week to do your essentail journeys, then you'll bitch all the way to the ten dollar gallon, but you will pay it, because you have no choice.

The cost is spread evenly across the population, because everyone can fill up, if you splash the cash.
You might not be avle to afford 25 gallons a week at 10 bucks a gallon, but 25 gallons are available.

Now you can still have global production as high as today and fifty years before the oil runs out, but india and china etc come more on stream and global demand goes up 10%

-------------------------------
the sun goes down, and rises the next morning, doesn't matter what the exact date is, it is coming
-------------------------------

Now your limit per week is 22.5 gallons, same for everyone else, theoretically it is still ten bucks a gallon, and there are still fifty years worth left in the ground.

For every person that wants "his" 25 gallons, someone else is going to have to drop from his 25 gallons to 20.

Cars under 180 cubic inches will be worth ten times as much overnight, 500 cube monsters will be worth maybe a buck a cube

By the end of that week nobody will be in any doubt that the glory days are gone and they are never coming back, and the only way to secure a gas supply is outbid everyone else on the planet. The ten dollar gallon will be history, it'll be 20 bucks.

A week later and you will have fuel rationing and mandated car sharing, because you have a certain minimum fuel usage required for all the trucks and industry and agriculture, black market gas will be 50 bucks a gallon.

Six months later and fuel rationing will have bitten hard, non essential ( and that means YOU sucker) users get allocated 1.5 gallons per week, which is worth a round 200 bucks on the black market

think this is fantasy?
80% of americans don't even have passports, as gore vidal says when he goes abroad, his fellow countrymen are not stupid, far from it, they are just ignorant (please look up the dictionary definition) of the rest of the world.
I am typing this in a country where this has already happened, every country around me, this has already happened.

it was called world war two, and it wasn't just about audie murphy and p51 mustangs and pearl harbour and lend lease, that was the propoganda newsreels and hollywood.

down at the sharp end it meant even the armies who could and did shoot anything and everything with impunity was desperately short of gasoline and diesel and lubricants, desperately desperately short, the rest of the countries who were not on the front lines had to get by on almost fuck all.

WW2 might have been an artificial shortage, but it was a shortage, and peak oil was still 50 years away in the future, nobody had even thought about it, but it is impossible to have another shortage without the same things happening.

A lister will give you power for 5 tons of fuel a year, so find a nice isolated island and hole up there with a lister and another for spares and 50 tons of fuel, and make sure nobody with guns finds you.

--------------------

USAF and USN and the jarheads may be able to sieze and protect and utilise a fair amount of the worlds reserves over the next decade or so, but they ain't gonna ship it home so you can drive your hummer, they will keep it and use it for themselves, they will have to to keep going themselves.

---------------------

Mr Belk got it sussed, 1000 bucks says he has range markers set down the valley, and he is living in a hard a desolate place that has only ever sustained a low population, if he stocks up on brass and powder and diesel he can trade enough to live well for a long time when everyone else is back on a palomino

------------------------

We can avoid this, just start building nuke plants like there was no tomorrow, and screw toxic waste, zoning, and even worker safety and the odd chernobyl, it's better than the alternative, there is enough U235 in australia (if uncle sam invades and siezes those resources too) to build fast breeders and keep the world going until fusion comes online

africa, forget it, not a place to be except in a military industrial compound extracting natural resources, lots of asia the same, england will be glad of being an island again, ones to watch a china and japan and india and maybe brasil

Mr Belk, if you get spare time start playing with packet radio  http://www.tapr.org/.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

kyradawg

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2006, 05:52:41 AM »

Peace&Love , Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 01:37:36 AM by kyradawg »

kpgv

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2006, 06:10:36 AM »
Dawg,

And so once this 2 million or so square miles ;) are planted and in "production" for "oil", will it be a problem for you if it's (which it WILL be, sorry) run by "Big Corporate Interests"??? What if the price for their product is higher than you would "like"??? How long before YOU and your ilk brand them as "BIG VEGGIE", the "MURDEROUS BASTARDS"!!!
Just Curious.

Kevin

kyradawg

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2006, 07:28:54 AM »

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 01:38:32 AM by kyradawg »

fuddyduddy

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2006, 07:41:25 AM »
Kur Dog,
Every so often you (and others) insult our intelligence to the point where someone MUST answer.

You have proven, once again, that liars can figure.

If you use the .nass.usda.gov/census #s for US land, you find that about 900 million acres are in farms.

And, total cropland acres are reported by them at around 400 million acres.

Also, please let us say that, for the sake of argument, we can indeed get 100 gallons of oil per acre.

Now can we also say that it is reasonable to assign 10% of that total acreage to oil production?

Hmm, let's see, this old fuddy duddy comes up with about 40 billion gallons of oil then.

Hmm, is that a little different than the 800 biillion gallons we consume each year? (here I am assuming your#s for THAT are correct)

Hmm, that won't work. let's use ALL our cropland for oil. We now have 400 billions of oil.

Hmm, that still is no good. Let's see, we have about 2.2 billion total acres in the US. Let's plant it all, the lakes, mountains, everything.

Tell you what, let's leave 90% of that highest producing ground in crop production so we can feed ourselves, and use 10% of it for oil, as in our original assignment.  Let's also leave the other 500 million acres reported as farmland alone, because it is planted in trees, cattle grazing land, etc, etc.

So we'll use the other 1.3 billion acres for oil. Now how much oil can we get? Let's say we can get 10% as much production as from
the GOOD cropland. We'll ignore small items like the land cities and towns take up, the lakes, mountains, deserts, etc. OK, Dog?  Still with me? Good.

Hmm, the other 1.3 billion acres then, is good for 13 billion gallons of oil at 10 gallons per acre.

Now we have 53  billion gallons of oil by my calculations. Would someone please check my math? You know how poorly old fuddy duddies do when calculating.

That is something less than 10% of what we use, and it would take a fair while to even get to that point. BUT, it would (and will) help!

NOW that we've gptten this sh** out of the way. let's discuss reality a bit.

You want solutions?  This is really an energy problem.

Put a premium on drilling for new oil HERE in the USA, and drill wherever you need to. If everyone paid a $1.00 premium per gallon  for this, rejuvinating stripper wells, and working on shale oil extraction, our oil production numbers would increase, and increase.

Build 1,000 or so Fischer-Tropsch coal gasification plants.

Build at least another 100 nuclear plants.

Continue to improve wind turbines, and put a 10ยข/KW hour incentive on production to be paid from the government. The increase in numbers would astound us all.

Do the same with solar, and just maybe someone will build a better "mousetrap", or at least get the cost of the collectors down to where we can REALLY put some to work.

Yes, let's please continue to grow more oil, becaue Kur Dog is absolutely correct in his basic premise. Even Fuddy Duddy pays $3.25-$3.30 per gallon to run 100% biodiesel in his Chev pickups (walk the walk) because he believes in doing his part, and because he really does not have the time to grow and harvest his own vegoil. AND, those of us who REALLY study this subject know that algae oil production per acre is TRULY spectacular!

Oh, can we please build 100 or so really modern, efficient refineries please? It would REALLY help.

Now, with that out of the way, may I please be allowed just one more tiny rant, and an itsy- bitsy statement to finish?

This global warming crap, is just that, crap. IF mankind WERE really raising the temperatures (and I do not think we are), it would be reversing a cooling trend that has continued unabated for 2 billion years or so. The sun keeps putting out less heat, period.

If we WERE to warm up even 5 degrees, the amount of land that is Taiga and tundra now, that would be available for farming would be spectacular. Yes, the Earth would lose a little to desertification, but just as small %. Please look it up, it is not so hard to find the data.

One last bit about global warming; whenever we have a really hot spell, (or dry, etc, etc) we read or hear the pundits ranting , "temperatures are the hottest they have been in **** for the past 1,000 years. This proves global warming."

IF THAT IS SO, pray tell me what was mankind doing 1,000 years ago that made it even warmer then?!

Please let me thank Jack B, Scott E, Sid in Nevada, (Mobile) Bob, SawmillerTim, Russell G, John F, and so many others that post relevant, accurate data and information about the Listeroids and other subjects.

Kur Dog, please shut up and go to your room.

Fuddy Duddy

















kyradawg

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Re: AT LAST THE TRUTH!
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2006, 07:52:48 AM »

Peace&Love, :D Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 01:35:30 AM by kyradawg »