timing marks & ring compressors

[fuelfarmer]

Dieselgman,
Do the gears on 8/1 kits have timing marks? I made my own with a sharpie and reassembled the gears like they were. If no marks, how do you time the gears?

Also is there an easy way. or even a hard way to install the piston without a proper ring compressor? I am eyeballing a band type oil filter wrench.......

[ronmar]

Not DieselGman, but I will take a stab:)

Timing can be determined using a dial indicator and magnetic base to look at the opening of the intake valve. Place the indicator to read the downward movement of the valve.  Not sure if the 8/1 spec is different, but on the 6/1, the intake valve stem should be pushed down(open) approximatly .020" as the flywheel reaches the TDC mark...

The cylinder liner on my 6/1 is beveled at the bottom.  I don't recall needing a compressor to put the cylinder into the liner, just a small standard screwdriver to push on the rings a little bit into their groove to get things moving.  Oh, and of course lube liberally.  I install the piston and rod with the cylinder lying on the bench and push it all the way to TDC.  I keep it up there using a large horseshoe magnet on top of the piston with a stick thru it.  I then install the whole assembly ontot he engine.  I put a little tubing over the big end studs to keep them from marring tghe journal.  With the piston at TDC and crank at BDC, the two shouldn't be able to meet anyway.  I find this easier as it is pretty tricky to manhandle the cylinder into position by itself, letalone get piston positioned properly into bore while doing this... 

Why not do it from the top of the cylinder once it is inplace?  I looked at this, but found it kind of difficult to get hand up into case access door to keep rod from hitting crank, and get piston pushed into place.  If it starts moving on it's own after the last ring gets into the cylinder, it is pretty difficult to stop it with the limited access...

My .02 as always 

[Quinnf]

There's more than one way to skin a cat.  I put the piston down through the top of the cylinder with a rag wrapped around the crank journal.  Wrapped a piece of weed-whacker string around each ring in turn and they dropped into place no sweat.  Stagger the ring gaps 120 degrees each.  This method allows gravity to work for you.  Lube with STP Oil Treatment (slicker than snot and stays where you put it -- great for lubing bearing surfaces during engine assembly) first.  

Regarding timing, forget the timing marks.  At TDC on the compression stroke the fuel lobe on the end of the cam shaft should be around 45 degrees to the left of vertical, or about 10:00 position.  Get it one tooth off and the difference stands out like an erection in a locker room.     And if you DO get it wrong the engine won't start.  You can't miss.  Presuming, of course, that you're not like my 18 year old to whom I gave a fancy watch as a graduation present.  He said, "Cool, Dad.  I really like it.  I guess I'm going to have to learn how to read an analog watch again."

Youth is wasted on the young.

q.

[Thob]

A hose clamp can also be used as a ring compressor - you may need to use several, stacked on top of each other.  You can also use two or three smaller clamps by opening them up and putting them "in series" to make one large clamp.

[dieselgman]

The kit gearing lacks any kind of timing markings, so we generally mark them with a paint stick during disassembly... if the positions are lost, it is not too difficult to recover... we use TDC on the crankshaft and both camshaft valve lobes in equal downward location to position the idler. Thin gauge stainless steel banding can be used to compress rings if you don't have an official ring compressor. A lot of folks damage the oil scraper ring during this process, so a little investment in a good band-type ring compressor is advisable and may save you some trouble.

dieselgman

[bandmiller2]

Quinnf is right about that STP slicker than greased owl turd.Only problem I found was it prolonged the ring break in period.Did a ford V8 years ago with STP and it took forever for the rings to seat.Same as synthetic oil, best to break in with dino then switch. Frank C.

[fabricator]

Store bought ring compressors are pretty cheap, but you can also go to home despot and go to the roofing section, you can get rolls of galvanized flashing steel, it's about 26 gauge, you can just cut a small piece and roll your own compressor and use a hose clamp to tighten it.

[Tom]

For one more interesting variation in installing the piston. I assemble the piston to the crank and slide the cylinder down over the studs and rest it on a 2x4 on edge. Then holding the flywheel keep some upward pressure on the rings and work them into the bottom of the cylinder. Once all the rings are in remove the 2x4 and lower the cylinder into place. Works like a champ!

[fuelfarmer]

Thanks for all the replys.

I took the bottom end of the 8/1 kit apart and blasted out the case it a hot water power washer. Getting the fly wheel keys out was a pain, but I knew that going in. I was pleasantly surprised how clean the engine was. There was some grit and grim, but not tons. I am a farmer and not a helicopter transmission technician, so my standards of clean could be low. The bottom end is back together and the fun begins. From here on it is like putting a big puzzle together without having the box.

Prepare for 10,000 questions like, should the lip on the bottom of the block fit into the case snug, or have an inch of slop? What is a delivery valve and spring, and why don't they show them in the trusty little owners manual when they specifically tell you to remove them ?
Let the games begin.........       

[Quinnf]

Don't hurry.  Enjoy the journey.  Savor the moment as you tighten each nut. 

My dad always taught me that if a job is worth doing, it's worth doing right.  Then when he got older it became, "Well, it will last longer than I will."  Now I'm having to fix some of those things, and he's still around. 

Quinn

[bandmiller2]

Most of us here are serious about our engines,if things are not checked and corrected it will be a constant worry,done once done right. Frank C.

[38ac]

As Quinn said, forget the marks you cant depend on the Indians to get them right anyway.  Getting the timing right is easily accomplished without them. I intend to make a video someday as it get rather wordy when I explain it.  If you have previously found and marked your TDC good for you place the crank there and have a helper hold it. If you don't have a TDC mark all is not lost! Just peer down from the top and center the crank throw in the opening for the cylinder. Look down both sides and center it as well as you can by sight. A very important thing for all to remember is you CANNOT be off just a degree or so, only an entire tooth which will become obvious later. Anyway get the crank throw centered as good as you can by sight and have your helper hold it. Then turn the camshaft until you are at the overlap or valve split position. This is where you have one lifter going up and the other down. There is a very small window of rotation where this occurs. try to find the middle of the split. Then with the crank at TDC and the lifters split you install the idler gear. It takes a bit a fiddling to do this and you may have to bump the crank a few degrees to get it to fall into place but you want the closest meshing tooth which ever direction it may be. Before you install the idler gear shaft look at the crank and your lifters. It will either be so close you have to keep looking to decide or it will OBVIOUSLY be off. If you cant decide it is very likely correct and install the idler gear shaft. If it is obviously off time them jump it a tooth and check again. This saves knocking the shaft in and out of the block, most of them are a tight fit.  Now to check you work turn the crankshaft while looking at the lifters. go back and forth until you have them in overlap. THEN look down at the crank, is it in the middle? Is so pat yourself on the back and go onward. If not then adjust the mesh in the needed rotation. AGAIN do not forget that you cannot get just a "little bit" of adjustment. If you must keep looking at it intensely in an effort to decide if it is off then it is OK. When you are off a tooth is is very obvious that the crank is not at TDC with the valves spilt. Good luck!

[fuelfarmer]

It lives............

[fuelfarmer]

Video alert.....the engine is bolted to the work bench on wheels with two bolts. It can get a little wild and crazy at times as the speed goes up. Time to read the balancing threads now that i have something to balance.

http://youtu.be/BZjq34zujjY

[dieselgman]

Looks pretty good to me! They all hop a bit when changing speeds.

dieselgman