KOEL 8/1 Project

[Horsepoor]

OKfarmer,

I have a couple old (last year) videos narrated by my friend (Listerboy). Several modifications have been made since then and I cleaned things up but these videos will give a good feel for my setups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HYakTZnypA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToXLQTXQ3qI

This is Bob's 16/2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7hAUK6WFaY

[overbore]

OK,
I used a GM smallblock starter and not sure which one but they made millions of them. I removed the Bendix and adapted the rubber wheel I got from McMaster Carr. I would have to do a bit of looking to find a p/n. I fabricated a new nose piece like the picture below. I bought a bunch off copper off eBay before it got expensive and found it easy to work with before I owned a tig welder. I had access to a shear and brake at the time, they were easy to make or fix. But no I don't work in copper but do play . Actually I work for a living with Tungsten ,Tantalum, and Molybdenum.

I see kit starter potential here-wihout copper any thoughts on your well executed starter???
Congrats.

Overbore

[dieselgman]

I too am very impressed with that starter modification! That looks like something worthy of mass-production, at least in a limited sense.

Ready to go into business? Kudos!

dieselgman

[OKFarmer]

**Edited to fix video link**

Picked up a starter today, and ordered the pulley.

I tried setting the sled on some rubber mats as XYZer suggested. Bad idea. Initially it took the slide out of it until it reached full rpm then it began to hop about 1" on each power stroke. Then I tried a piece of plywood. No go. Then I put a piece of hardi-backer under the sled on got this result:

http://youtu.be/p1aX4cSHb1k

Pretty tame.

So here's another question: I don't have the top steel plates on the blocks, but I will put them in there. Anyway, do you guys see a problem the way the casting is sitting there? Is there enough casting contacting the surface of the block?


Thoughts?

I'm ready to work on then genny head mounting now. I have a radiator setting the shop that I think will work. Are the ports for cooling in these heads 1" pipe thread?

[38ac]

You may have to spend an afternoon playing with the stick on weights on the flywheels to get it settled down.  

I have seen both U.S. and Brittish pipe threads on the blocks and cant remember which the KOEL is but I was thinking it stated on the plastic plugs?  Even though there is a 1/2 thread pitch differance in the British pipe thread  I have not had troubles getting our pipe to seal when using a quality dope.

[OKFarmer]

38ac, Check my video. I fixed it. What do you think?

[BruceM]

The rubber mat wasn't a bad idea.  It's what you need to get the engine balanced.

Hopping 1 inch on the rubber mat at operating speed tells you what you need to know-  you badly need to adjust your balance.  A solid enough base will allow you to run a very unbalanced engine, but the stresses are still there.  Put it back on the rubber mat and fix the balance.  (Start balancing via Mr. X method with reduced speed so that it's just starting to hop.  Just get the engine settled down adequately at operating rpm; don't bother with perfection at this point.

When you are done with your base assembly and generator install on the base, then you can do the final balancing with your "typical" load, again on the rubber mat. 

I agree with your concern about the small bearing surface on the wood for your engine base.  I'd want a broader bearing area on Douglas fir. Your steel plate should solve that. 

[OKFarmer]

BruceM, not sure I agree. If one had enough weight (be it counter weights on crank, or a side loaded flywheel) to counter act the down force of the power stroke would you not have a 0 HP engine?

I get it that it could be out side to side, but any slow turning single cylinder will hop on rubber won't it?

[xyzer]

BruceM, not sure I agree. If one had enough weight (be it counter weights on crank, or a side loaded flywheel) to counter act the down force of the power stroke would you not have a 0 HP engine?

I get it that it could be out side to side, but any slow turning single cylinder will hop on rubber won't it?

OK
If you add the weight of the piston and rod opposite the piston and rod you will get an extreme slider. The weight you added will work against you when it is 90deg to the piston travel. I guess I misunderstood your post when you said you could put your foot on it and it stayed in place. If it was under load and running at 60Hz and you could stop the sliding with your foot the rubber would work. Evidently you weren't under load and at RPM. A balanced single cylinder with a cast iron piston in never "balanced" but is a compromise. If you added an opposing cylinder and piston it would make it easy.

[OKFarmer]

OK
If you add the weight of the piston and rod opposite the piston and rod you will get an extreme slider. The weight you added will work against you when it is 90deg to the piston travel. I guess I misunderstood your post when you said you could put your foot on it and it stayed in place. If it was under load and running at 60Hz and you could stop the sliding with your foot the rubber would work. Evidently you weren't under load and at RPM. A balanced single cylinder with a cast iron piston in never "balanced" but is a compromise. If you added an opposing cylinder and piston it would make it easy.

I 100% agree with the above statement.  It was under no load bolted to a steel frame  just sitting directy on concrete. The steel frame to concrete was so slick I could push the farme and engine around with ease.  When I set the frame on a piece of hardy-backer (tile board) instead of just on the concrete (not bolted to anything) she stayed right there and chugged away. I feel like after that test I am happy with balance.

With the same exact setup just setting on a rubber mat, hop, hop, hop......

[BruceM]

No, a well balanced listeroid will not hop up and down an inch on a rubber mat.  In fact you should be able to put a cup of water on the valve cover, have it stay in place and see just a small amount of rippling. These engines can be pretty sweet, smooth runners despite the single cylinder, and without much work.

My 650 rpm Metro 6/1 Listeroid is mounted on a Douglas Fir wood frame on rubber pads.  Before balancing via the Mr X method, installed and under load it vibrated the whole engine shed with 10" of concrete under the engine area (monopour 10x12) before balancing, despite the 1" rubber pads under the frame. (Scored and gorilla glued in place.) I was surprised at this as previous runs of just the wood frame sitting on a concrete walkway showed it to be just a bit of a "walker".  I read about the Mr X method on this forum and then tried it with much success.

I did the final balance under load with a cup of water on the valve cover as an visual  indicator.  

If you're happy with it as is, great.  You can always balance it better later if you need to.  A rubber mat or some carpet scraps under the frame or pallet is required for the Mr. X method...some movement must be allowed.  

My hat's off to Mr X, wherever he may be.

[OKFarmer]

BruceM, I need to read more on the Mr X method. With mine bolted to the frame, and the frame just sitting on the hardi-board I could have set the water on the valve-cover. I know my shop floor isn't perfectly level, and it did slide an inch while running (you can see it isn't square on that little pice of hardi-board in the video) but I think it was because of the unleveleness of the floor.

After I get her bolted down and under load I will see how she behaves. I've seen MANY references and Interpretations of the Mr X method, but not the method itself. Do you have a link? 

Thanks for all your help!!

[BruceM]

The archives seem to have been deleted on this forum.  The Mr. X method (aka flywheel chalking) has been discussed many, many times but a search comes up with a blank.  Good grief. 

Let me see if I can find another reference to it for you. 

Sounds like you might just wait and see how it feels once you're done and can do load testing. There's no point in fighting with success!

[BruceM]

Later today the same search finds some results back as far as 2006, though not the original thread. Bit of a server glitch, I guess.

Do a search or balancing and/or Mr X when the server is cooperating and you'll find plenty of reading.  It's a popular topic and many approaches. 

The basics of the Mr X method:  Run the engine on a skid over rubber mat or some carpet scraps to allow some movement.  Use a rod or some other support in a bucket of rocks or dirt as a brace for a felt tip pen. Start and slowly move the pen in to mark the flywheel.  Stop, add 4 oz of clay inside the flywheel rim opposite the mark and about 7 inches leading the center of the mark in the direction of rotation.  (That's about right for a 24 inch flywheel at 650 rpm, YMMV.) Now wipe off the mark with a rag and some alcohol.  You can then do the other flywheel.  Repeat, alternating flywheels, until the marks start getting very long and/or you feel you aren't making much improvement.  Ronmar suggests a dial gauge at that point for further fine tuning.  Some of us go to trial and error placement "round the clock" at that point to see if the running smoothness can be improved.  A typical load is recommended at least for the fine tuning.  I tried the dial gauge, and yes, it can be helpful, but I thought my feet and a cup of water on the head worked fine too.

 The Mr X method alone will tame a bad hopper quickly.  After that it's diminishing returns. Don't keep marking if you are getting long marks and/or are "chasing your tail".  Three hour increments "around the clock" was what I did for my fine tuning.  Only a small improvement at that point.

If a cup of water will stay put on the valve cover, and your feet say it's fine,  that's pretty damn good.

[OKFarmer]

Been on another trip with the family up into Central Missouri for a few days so not much progress.  I want to really hit this hard and get it finished up this week/weekend if I can. We'll see how that goes.  For now I have a pic of me setting the mounts to attach the frame to the concrete pad.



Here is the center of the sled with the wood blocks in place capped in steal with the anchor bolts passing the through the frame, blocks, and steel caps. Its just awaiting the listeroid to be dropped on and bolted down again.