Help. Lister SR3M not starting.

[dieselgman]

Marine engines are generally clockwise and industrial engines generally anti-clockwise. Sounds like you have correct rotation in yours.
Compression can be judged in part by using decompressor levers, spin up engine to full cranking speed, release levers and note difference in crank speed. It will be a noticeable drop in speed and engine will rock a bit. You can also check valve seal by bringing engine to cranking speed and feeling with your palm both inlet and exhaust port pulses to be sure that you don't have a two-way flow going on in either side. You will be able to feel a substantial suck on the inlet and a good blow on the exhaust side, should not be much else discernable to your hand making a partial seal on the manifold.
I can recall a case where we had a rag protecting the inlet port during assembly and it got sucked into the manifold on first crank when it was overlooked. We could not see the rag at all and the engine would not fire (was not getting air/oxygen). Finally started taking the engine apart and found the rag neatly tucked up inside.  

dieselgman

[nickcirrus]

yes I have had a rag trick in a VW engine. Was on french motorway when engine went terminal with a big bang!  When I later took down engine I found a rag from engine compartment had been sucked into cooling duct and blocked the flow of cooling air. I reckon the compression is fine. The valves are new and re seated and ground in, though I did not replace the guides and I can feel suction on the inlet with my hand. Going to have to just reassemble and try again I guess. Any magic tricks to starting?  I did wonder about using a rag soaked in paraffin but this time blow the flame out so it sucks in the smoke which should work a bit like atomized fuel.  Last time I changed piston rings valves and guides and It took some starting then but only a day! May be I just have to keep cranking. Trouble is the starter motor can get hot and seize up and of course batteries get flat too. Mr Realdiesels who sold me the parts seemed to think that whatever caused the con rod to fail may be more serious and sometrhing more catastrophic in the engine, but I can not see what else that might be. Oh well Ill get down today with a microscope and work thru sequence and timing etc, close her up and pray!

[millman56]

I know it may go against the grain for some, but have you tried a shot of lube oil down each inlet tract? It worked on my LR4 which had been stood for donkeys years, had not much compression and no amount of cranking would start it,  after administering the oil it soon started, albeit with a voluminous cloud of smoke, it now starts instantly.
 According to received wisdom smaller cylinder capacity engines such as these are always more difficult to start from cold (due to greater heat loss per unit volume) than larger engines.                                                                                                                                                            Its a fair assumption that yours will be a bit down on compression due to not being bedded in,  a chicken and egg situation in fact.

[dieselgman]

True enough, raising the compression does tend to help start these little beasties, although not normally an issue except in cold weather.

I know we are making a lot of assumptions about how this thing was assembled... dangerous but unavoidable.

For one thing, we assume the rings had correct end-gaps, were properly staggered around the bore, were properly and liberally lubricated on assembly, that cylinder head bump height is correct, and that the unit is making proper compression, that valves are properly adjusted and closing fully and sealing as they should.

The problem here will likely turn out to be something small that is being overlooked...

dieselgman

[listard-jp2]

I know it may go against the grain for some, but have you tried a shot of lube oil down each inlet tract? It worked on my LR4 which had been stood for donkeys years, had not much compression and no amount of cranking would start it,  after administering the oil it soon started, albeit with a voluminous cloud of smoke, it now starts instantly. 

If this engine was a handle start version of the SR3 then it would have oil priming reservoirs provided for each cylinder already as a matter of course. This would be an easy retrofit option, just requiring removal of blanking plugs in the inlet port for each cylinder and also in the air cowling.

The oil priming cups and primers used to be Aluminium (primer plunger), and Brass (primer cup), but Listers cheapened this item up in later years, and now it is made from plastic. This part is still easily available from a Lister Petter dealer.

If the O/P did take this course of action an easy way to introduce some oil, would be via the cylinder head breather tubes (just requires the removal of the rocker covers first). That way removal of the inlet manifold (if its still on the engine, would not be necessary).

Millman56 - Do you not mean SL4 or SR4 ?. As I have never encountered a Lister LR4 engine.

[nickcirrus]

Dont have the cups on the manifold but have undone the blanking plugs and poured oil in with a small funnel to the same effect, though through the breather pipe sounds better. All the piston rings were staggered and oiled etc. What I did not do is check the gap on the rings when inserted into cylinder. The new pistons came with rings fitted and I was not keen to take them off. Since Realdiesels supplied the  re cut cylinders as well as the pistons I assume they were oversized the .002 inches correctly.  Went through the valve sequence yesterday using a screwdriver to observe TDC and valves opening and closing and can see nothing wrong there.
Interestingly when I did the bump clearance I found I had to remove shims in the heads to obtain the correct clearance with the new pistons.  Frankly I think I am done looking at it anymore and going to reassemble today and try again.  One thing i did not try is easy start. Did buy a tin but It had no nozzle so It was nearly impossible to spray. Don't like the stuff 'cos it fires too early and makes a nasty clunking sound in the engine. Am getting desperate now so will have to go back to shop and get the nozzle. May be that will be enough to get her running. Any other ways to help her start?  Oxygen? Nitro? Am out of ideas now just have to hope!
Thanks.

[dieselgman]

We have seen starting ether cause broken rings and bent connecting rods in the SR model. Beware! You can get by with it if used very sparingly. If your ambient temperature is low, then starting can be aided by adding heat to the manifold and inlet air stream.

dieselgman

[millman56]

Well spotted Listard  it is in fact an SL4 , late onset dsyslexia ?

[bandmiller2]

Nick,you need a fresh set of eyes looking at your Lister,do you have a friend or someone that knows engines.Sometimes we get tunnel vision and overlook the obvious.I feel your frustration. "Its but a whale and we're whaling men" Frank C.

[nickcirrus]

Nick,you need a fresh set of eyes looking at your Lister,do you have a friend or someone that knows engines.Sometimes we get tunnel vision and overlook the obvious.I feel your frustration. "Its but a whale and we're whaling men" Frank C.

You are right about that my friend. Had an engineer pop over today. He put his hand over the inlet while i cranked her round. very low suction! Cranked her with rocker boxes off and as much smoke came out of engine as exhaust! Conclusion, not enough compression! If that be the case then the new oversized (indian) pistons are not matching with the re cut cylinders.

I plan to take them all off and my engineer will get some measurements on ring gaps and barrel diameters, then I can go back to Mr "realdiesels" with evidence and hopefully it will not cost me another arm and a leg to put right! I guess the heads could be cracked but I did look for cracks right at the beginning of this frustrating tale so I think that is unlikely. Wish I had checked ring gaps at the beginning but I assumed they would be all correct.

Never assume anything!

[dieselgman]

Your SR has iron cylinder heads so cracking is rare... Indian pistons can be very good (or very bad) - that just depends on who did the casting and machining and quality control. Do yours bear a makers' name in the casting somewhere? We have had plenty of problems with Indian HR pistons until we changed makers and things seem to be resolved... none of our issues prevented starting and running the engines though.

Best of luck with figuring that out!

dieselgman

[nickcirrus]

Once more unto the breach as they say.  Starting to feel very pissed off when I think how many hours I have spent looking inside or thinking it through in my head not to mention It has been nearly 8 months since I bust the con rod.

Do not recall seeing a maker's mark, just a number on the top of the piston which I think was either 002 or 020. Wondering if the second hand cylinders have not been cut to size correctly.

I hope I get some positive response from the guy who sold me all the stuff. Guess I would like him to sort it out for me at no cost. The thought of stripping down again does not exactly inspire me.  Think I will leave con rods connected and just pull the pots off and pull out gudgeon pins to release pistons. Bit fiddly to replace but have done so in the past with a friend and fingers!

Hey Ho...

[listard-jp2]

Your pistons should be sized at +0.020" oversize, so first you need to have a look at the cylinders, and confirm that they have being re-bored to the correct size, which will be nominally 3.520" for a +0.020" oversize piston (also check both ends of the cylinder bore, to confirm the bore is not tapered).
When you have confirmed this is is correct, take some piston rings off the pistons, and try them in the cylinder barrels making sure you have the piston ring perpendicular to the cylinder bore axis [push a piston down on top of the ring to line it up], so you can see what the ring gaps are like.
With new rings and a re-bored barrel, you should typically see 0.010" to 0.015" ring gap clearance (I am guessing at these figures as I don't have my SR w/shop manual due to it being loaned out at present, however perhaps others on here could confirm the exact dimensions you need).
Whilst your at it I would see what the gap between the piston ring groove and the piston ring is like, this should be no more than 0.002" on a new piston and ring assembly (be aware, you will not be able to do this on the top ring, as it is a Keystone wedge style ring).
To carry out the measurements outlined above you would be able to get away with a good vernier caliper and a set of feeler gauges.
I am puzzled by your supplier selling you Indian products, as they make a point on there website about only using genuine OEM parts in the engines they refurbish for resale.


Edited to read better.

[nickcirrus]

Thanks for the onfo Listard.

 My engineer friend has a bore measuring tool and he said to drop them off to him and he will measure up. Real diesels gave me a choice of genuine parts or aftermarket parts and being a bit skint I chose the cheaper option as they were half price.  Did think at the beginning the compression was low but figured it would eventually fire up and bed in and of course one expects new parts to be ok so of course I looked every where else instead, remembering that when I did a ring change some years ago it did take a few hrs to fire up.

Better get on it today.