Author Topic: key puller part 3  (Read 12969 times)

fabricator

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2012, 10:24:33 PM »
Hi,          just a sketchy thought based on a 30 year ago welding tech course , fusion welding  a forging such as a crankshaft even with preheat and post welding heat applied, could unless the entire forging is normalised,  introduce stresses/hard zones which may pose a greater risk of fracture than the original damage would.   

Mark.

Exactly right, try the simple fix first, it's cheap and quick.
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38ac

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 01:56:49 AM »
The #2 pump cam gets very little lubrication as you surmised.  This is not just with your engine but all including the originals. Apparently Lister thought enough oil was dripped from the cam bearing plus the mist blowing around in the crankcase getting through that hole in the bottom? There have been a few fixes posted but I am not satisfied that there is a problem to fix? Lister never attended to it if there is?
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Horsepoor

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 05:48:54 AM »
Reference injection pump #2, several years ago I've implemented two of the solutions posted on this forum to increase lubrication: Total time to finish both jobs was about a hour.

#1   Removed the bolt above the camshaft used for pre-oiling, drilled a small hole into the bolt, then taped and threaded some welding rod into the bolt. Adjusted the length of the welding rod so that it terminated just above the camshaft. Theory is that oil splash will hit the rod then drip down onto the shaft in greater quantity

#2   While preforming an oil change, decided to drill another hole in the crankcase to allow more oil mist to blow into the chamber and lubricate the bushing. I think I drilled a 5/8 inch hole "above" the camshaft in the top middle section.

So far these modifications have not resulted in any oil leaks and I believe lubrication to the #2 injector pump lob has been increased. Now, it is open to debate, is the increased oil is necessary and if so why didn’t Lister make these very simple design modifications in their original design. I don’t know, but it works for me.        

Bruce
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 05:51:16 AM by Horsepoor »
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xyzer

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 06:55:18 AM »
Get a piece of cold roll the size of your wandering drill and silver solider it in.......turn and polish.... or......with time and patience with a mic work it by hand. Just a thought.....
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BruceM

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2012, 04:03:51 PM »
Thanks Bruce, for the "reed in the wind" idea you posted many years ago.  I think it has real merit.  I used a variant of your idea.

I use the cam bearing oil access bolt to permanently hold down my pneumatic cylinder exhaust valve lifter,  so I drilled that bolt, tapped the head for an 8-32 bolt and epoxy-steel'd in a 3/16"  brass tube that extends downward from the other end with a 45 degree cut tip that ends above the cam bearing.  This lets me leave the bolt in place, but I can still lube the cam bearing with 90 wt gear oil through the hollow reed every third oiling (24 hrs run time) by removing just the small 8-32 bolt.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 04:09:32 PM by BruceM »

38ac

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2012, 04:28:03 PM »
I didn't mean to  imply that more oiling to that area is not needed. Although my operating experience with the twins is darned little. I do own three of them and they all are pretty dry looking in that area. I have removed the covers right after operating the engines and precious little oil gets in there believe me.  I plan to do some mods myself on the one that is intended for work basically copying what you guys have already done. That Lister put that plug there to oil the left side cam bearing tells us something, there isn't much oiling going on over there.  That Lister never did address the problem with a fix also tells me that not a whole lot is needed,,, I think?? ::)
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32 coupe

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2012, 11:09:13 PM »
I was thinking of Horsepoor's idea of another hole located above the camshaft on the block behind the cover.....I even thought of a 3/8" hole with a brass plug IN THE COVER so I could pull the plug and oil this area from time to time.....the  "reed in the wind" idea I've never seen but have to admit it's a neat idea

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« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 12:07:56 AM by 32 coupe »
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fabricator

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 02:25:45 AM »
Lets all keep in mind the originals ran like this for half a century.
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listard-jp2

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 01:50:41 PM »
I am guessing that the pictured narrow thrust surface is a defect in the original casting/machine work? The ones I've looked at were considerably wider than that one... this may be the larger and more involved problem you have uncovered with that crankshaft.

From looking at the photos in more detail, it would appear that this particular Listeriod manufacturer has carried out a modification to the main bearing journal, by increasing its diameter (Genuine Lister CS engines have a common diameter for the main bearing journal and flywheel mounting diameter.

Whilst increasing the bearing journal diameter is a good idea in principle, it creates other problems:

1), If the manufacture is using a stock blank for the main bearing bush (because if he is not then he will also need a non standard bearing housing), then an increase in journal diameter will consequently reduce the thrust area of the flange, hence the comment above " The ones I've looked at were considerably wider than that one"

2), The internal diameter of the crankshaft timing gear is reduced, hence its ability to maintain an interference fit on the crank journal is reduced, as its reduced thickness now means it is more likely to stretch instead of maintaining an interference fit.

3), The internal diameter of the crankshaft timing gear is reduced, hence in turn as the timing gear forms a thrust face for the main bearing bush flange, so its bearing area is reduced, furthermore if there are any high spots / burrs on the gear teeth. This will rapidly wear the white metal thrust face of the bush even more so. As the lower root portion of the gear teeth will come into contact with the thrust face of the main bearing bush.

All in all another Indian modification which on first thoughs seem to be quite reasonable, but whose knock on effects have not being properly considered.


Edited to correct punctuation mistakes
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 04:17:23 PM by listard-jp2 »

38ac

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 03:44:29 PM »

From looking at the photos in more detail, it would appear that this particular Listeriod manufacturer has carried out a modification to the main bearing journal, by increasing its diameter (Genuine Lister CS engines have a common diameter for the main bearing journal and flywheel mounting diameter.






Well I'll be hanged! I looked at that picture 10 times and didn't notice that. You are of course correct on all points about the thrust surfaces. There shouldn't be a lot of side thrust to begin with should there?  I wonder if the engine was not bedded level?
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listard-jp2

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2012, 04:30:14 PM »
Well I'll be hanged! I looked at that picture 10 times and didn't notice that. You are of course correct on all points about the thrust surfaces. There shouldn't be a lot of side thrust to begin with should there?  I wonder if the engine was not bedded level?

I would agree with you that side thrust should be minimal, but external factors such as belt driven equipment will come into play, especially if alignment is not correct. Also as you identify initial engine installation might also have had an effect. This feature of forming a thrust face on a timing gear is another flaw in the original Lister CS design, but the Indian modification makes it more so.

Its also possible that this problem occurred during manufacture, as its well known [and backed up by the O/P that the flywheel keys were well tight] how the assemblers like to fit the flywheel keys with sledge hammers. I could easily see this flywheel key fitting process causing damage to the thrust face of the main bearing bush on the end opposite to that which a flywheel key is being hammered into.

mauicole

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2012, 10:19:29 PM »
Hi 32 coup, is the damaged crank bushing the one on the timing gear side? If it is, there might be a flaw on the gear that messed up the bushing. My timing gear had a burr that grinded away at the bush creating excess endplay.


I am leaning to fabricators idea as this is what I thought when I first saw what a stupid mistake I'd made............


It's plain to see where I ended with first driil and should have stopped there.



Here we can see where the engine was hammering the extra .020 of endplay.



Think there is enough area for the bearing ? Look at the scuff in the corner and the wear on the bearing area.



The gov. end bearing looks like it has not been touched





I don't understand how the no. 2 cyl. injector pump cam and lobe are getting oil ??  What am I missing ? ( other than the obvious !!)


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32 coupe

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Re: key puller part 3
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2012, 01:17:57 AM »
mauicole,
 No, the bearing that looks damaged is on the other end. I looks like the "fillet" on my crank is too large as well as the "thrust" or endplay bearing surface too small.

 The gear side of the crank bearing has no marks, as though it has never "seen" the gear. Its is a good thing because as you said yours had a flaw in the gear , mine is very rough on the
gear face and will need a clean up and polish as well.


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Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
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