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Author Topic: Lister & Genhead are on the way  (Read 22200 times)

trigzy

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Lister & Genhead are on the way
« on: December 18, 2005, 11:32:29 PM »
Hi all,
     Only my second post here, but here it goes:

I'm an owner of a company that sells Chinese engines/generators here in Canada.  We import them,  get them CSA approved, and sell them.  We sell gas engines from 1-13HP, and diesels from 3-10HP, generators to 5kW.  Anyways, in the process of negotiations for purchasing some 24-50kW 1800RPM enclosed liquid cooled gens, a supplier offered to send me a 15kW (Brushless, AVR and/or Manual voltage reg, 120/240, Volt/Amp/Hz gauge) gen head.  Of course, I accepted.

But, needing something to drive it with, and also needing an excuse to buy a Listeriod, I dug out an old email from Anand Enterprise, and ordered up a 25/2.

I cant wait to have all this stuff here, should be quite the little project.  I'm thinking about chain drive, but we'll have to see when it all gets here.  Of course, by the time I'm done it will have cost me more than the fully assembled 24kW silent unit with auto start etc etc, but just ordering something isn't much fun. 

I haven't seen anyone running such a large setup on this site, is there any reason why?  Maybe I might have the largest setup??  (And surely the only one with the CSA approval on it - *scoulds Canadians who have "forgotten" about it on thier generators*)  I'm also curious as to why every one has these ST heads, granted all of the standard arguments about brush/brushless on Utterpower, but the brushless units I've had and sold are VERY reliable. 

Thoughts/comments/ideas welcome and appreciated.

Thanks,


Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

t19

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2005, 01:52:36 AM »
John Furgeson at http://www.woodnstuff.ca/new_page_2.htm  has a 12/2 and a 25/2 running here in Ottawa, seen his set up... very sweet
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

Stan

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2005, 01:57:28 AM »
Steve...I don't see a location listed on your email...could you be on the "not so" wet coast?
Stan

trigzy

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2005, 04:19:12 AM »
I'm in London, Ontario, Canada.  Two hours from Detroit, two hours from Toronto, 6 from Ottawa.  Not really on any coast, right in the snow belt though.  (Of course you can see that from Mapquest if you still aren't sure where I am)
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

quinnf

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2005, 03:16:07 PM »
London, Ontario . . .  isn't that where GM builds their locomotives?  Now THAT would be worth seeing!

Quinn

t19

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2005, 05:08:39 PM »
No the locomotive plan is where they build the LAV - Light Armoured Vech - or Stryker for the Yanks in the crowd.  And it is awsome to see them being built.

There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

quinnf

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2005, 08:20:20 PM »
Ok, I guess I'm confused.  Several years ago, my then 3-year old son was so captivated by trains, when I spied a long freight train stopped on a siding near our home, I took him to check it out close up.  We walked past the engine and just stood there listening to the rumble of the 4 idling locomotives.  My son was transfixed (moi, too!).   ;)

Engineer-guy leaned out the window and we started talking.  After a few minutes, he looked this way and that, and invited us up for a quick tour.  Really amazing brand new locomotive.  It's been a while now, but I thought the nameplate said GM, 4300 BHP, and London, Ontario, Canadia as the assembly location.

Quinn

t19

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2005, 09:16:06 PM »
Oh you are correct, but they have switched production to LAV's.  I don't think the locomotive div is still there, the plant was sold about 4 years ago
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

trigzy

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2005, 09:45:27 PM »
There certianly seems to be a lot of locomotive traffic here for a closed plant!  :P   LAV's are made next door to the locomotive plant.  The LAV division (part of GM Defense) was sold to General Dynamics.  As far as I know, locomotive production still goes on here as long as GM has orders for them and remains solvent.  I haven't been in the plant in years - but it sure is a neat place, but construction doesn't happen very fast.  It's neat when they haul a locomotive down to the airport to load it on a plane for europe.  A locomotive strapped down in the cargo hold of an aircraft - now that is cool!

Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

t19

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2005, 01:14:40 AM »
I stand corrected. :D
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

GerryH

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2005, 08:52:10 PM »
Hi trygzy,
First, you are to be commended for not sneaking around and popping up under different names like a certian seller does on this site.
I would welcome information on your generators, although CSA approval means as much to me as the Liberals promises. I also care little for AVR, but I'm open to hear your case for it. Are the end bells cast iron, or aluminium? The brushless aspect is interesting, are these like the Delco alternators, rotating fingers over a stationary coil?

Gerry

trigzy

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2005, 04:48:19 AM »
Gerry,
       I wasn't really trying to sell anything on here (I really do hate shipping stuff), I get enough business now selling motors on eBay, and the generators just word of mouth.

       First of all, are you asking about the big (ST style) generator head?  Or the small 2.5 or 5kW preassembled diesel generator sets?  I got a digital camera for Christmas, I can try and get some pics for you if it's the small one.

As for the big WTW head (ST style, but brushless)  I dont have it yet - It should have it in a couple weeks.  I suspect it should be nice, but I'm gonna have good look over it and test the hell out of it before I dare offer any for sale.  These units are available brush and brushless, with and without AVR.

The 2.5 & 5kW units have Capacitor voltage regulation, which holds the voltage steady as long as the engine has no RPM variations, and seems to work pretty well.  Starts even the biggest motor easily; the same motor that would trip the breaker on an AVR 5kW unit; here's the short version "why"

1)Generator running at 60Hz, 120V
2)Close switch to motor (say 5HP)
3)Engine on generator slows down, frequency falls, capactitor lowers output voltage
4)Motor draws less current at a lower frequency and voltage and is essentially "soft started"
5)Motor and generator spool up to speed together
6)Voltage reattains to 60Hz, 120V, motor runs normal.


As for the big generator they're sending me, I wont make any promises as far as this AVR goes, as there are good ways to make an AVR and a lot of BAD BAD ways to make an AVR.  I asked them to send a couple AVR modules with it so I could torture test them with over/under load/voltage/current.


Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Doug

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2006, 03:10:50 PM »
Slip rings or Self exicted rotors:

Speaking purely from the prospective of a Winder and Industrial electrician I would have to say all things equal I would prefer the model with brushes and slip rings.

Pros for Slip rings:
You can actualy adjust your voltage, and this is important to some people.
You can syncronize a brush type alternator to the grid if you want to build a do it yourslef Co-Gen plant but not with a self excited machine (when I say you can't I mean you can't without several seconds of excitement and some light flickering and the possibility of tripping brakers).
Slip rings give you the ability to adjust power factor for better load voltage regulation.
Easy to trouble shoot, and repair.
Fields can be flashed with a 12 volt battery with ease ( there is a quick and dirty way to do this with brushless but it requires and extension cord with 2 male ends and guts )

Pros for self excited:
No brushes to clean and replace.
Cheaper to buy and manufacture.

As for your theory of a brushless machine acting as a soft start a voltage drop of 10% on an induction motor during start up can result in a starting torque drop of as much as 20% or more. This may infact make it harder to start a heavy load if not imposssible in some cases. Another problem I have with brushless machines is the unpredictable nature of failure in the MOVs and diodes attached to the rotor caused by all that spinning, shaking and transients caused by switching on and off with high reactive power contents loads ( HID lighting, welders and motor loads ).

There are some other ways to build a brushless Alternator I do like but I don't think I have yet seen an ST or any other type stand alone head with a seperate exciter and an adjustable pillot ( with the exception of some Lerroy Somers heads 15 kVA and up) until you get into larger sizes. These types work as well as the brush types for vaoltage and PF regulation but at the cost of more parts ( a smaller generator within a generator and a pilot exciter to control the field now a days unfortunately mostly electronic ).

Doug

trigzy

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2006, 07:46:10 PM »
Doug,
Some responses:

You can adjust voltage on these heads.
You can syncronize these heads together and/or with the grid without issue (assumming you syncronize the head and then close the breaker).
These units are certainly more expensive than the ST counterparts.

Regarding my "theory" - it's not related to brushless, it works the same on the brushed units as well. It's the capacitor voltage regulation that gives the effect that I was describing.  It's not ideal, but it doesn't burn out motors like an overloaded AVR does.

I have 3600RPM heads with 1500+ hours on them with no failures to date so I'm pretty confident in my suppliers products.  In testing, I have loaded them up to 150% of capacity with fully resistive (1.00PF) and fully reactive loads (0.00 PF) (and various levels in between) with no failures/damage inside 100 hours.


I'll try and get some pictures later on.

Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Doug

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Re: Lister & Genhead are on the way
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2006, 02:41:13 AM »
Ok....
My response wasn't meant as an attack on your product.
How do you adjust the voltage on your genheads?
How do you flash the field on them?
How do you adjust your PF when grid tied?

Could you post an internal wiring diagram of these heads to familiarize us with the difference of what you are selling as apposed to a generic brushless head for say a Coleman.
My personal feeling is Brush types alternators are better and easier. I work on larger syncronous machines myself, MG sets, motors, sync condencers, sync converters and brushless DC machines in the 500 to 2000 Kva range. With a little PM and attention they will go months on a set of brushes and decades with out stoning.
K.I.S.S., and electronics is a fine thing in moderation

Doug