Author Topic: All members - some thoughts.  (Read 13069 times)

GuyFawkes

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All members - some thoughts.
« on: June 01, 2006, 04:50:33 PM »
The background to my thinking is on my blog, which is http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/blog/archives/11-Sorting-the-Men-from-the-Boys..html and no this is not some lame self promotion of my blog (it's on the same domain as all my lister files anyway) but it saves me typing the background twice.

My suggestion is that we, as a group, admins especially and those who pay for this server in particular) take note of something.

That something is how outsiders get treated and how their percieve us.

Get it right and you have a thriving community, get it wrong and we disappear ever further up our own asses.

To that end I have a suggestion, that we mandate what we are all about right now, and I personally would not feel that what we are about is listers, or listeroids, or co-gen, or any other restrictive and exclusive terminology.

I suggest we are about the following.

All applications of Slow speed stationary engines of 750 RPM or less
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

jimmer

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2006, 06:22:01 PM »
Well let's see.

With my GM-90 8/1 I have a vertical single cylinder diesel with large flywheels that is made in India.

However, my RPM is a little above 750.

So I quack like a duck, and I walk like a duck, but because I walk a little too fast I’m not a duck.

This is just plain stupid.

Jim
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 03:51:46 PM by jimmer »

mobile_bob

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2006, 07:12:51 PM »
how about we limit it too any one or two cylinder NON EPA COMPLIANT diesel engine!

at least then we can develop a large enough lobby to get some exemptions maybe.... perhaps,,,, ok i guess we won't


on a serious note, living here in the states there is a finite supply of original listers, and getting one as easily as our fellow board members that live in England or one of the commonwealth countries is definetly not a cake walk by any means.

so we were left with listeroids, petteroids, and yes like it or not changfa's, at least until the EPA ban. in this crazy ass country who knows how long it will be before they confiscate all of them anyway.... don't laugh someone is probably thinking about it anyway.

i personally don't think this board should be so narrow in scope as to orphan these other engines and their variants, there is at least some power and protection in numbers, and certainly a better chance of getting something done and gathering more idea's and experiences.

i have been involved with another RE board for a number of years, and when they decided to change the format of the front page to block out anything that was not approved by the admin and place elsewhere the whole thing took a dive in my estimation, too limited in scope.

sure not everyone or everything is directly connected to a <750rpm lister, but there are those that develope idea's, processes and procedures on other engines that simply will take their ball and go home if they feel excluded. This is a serious loss in my mind.

as a hypothetical example...

say i guy in brazil ,, working with a petteroid running at 1500 rpm,, works out the plans, developes and impliments an exhaust gas heat exchanger from something as simple as a pop can, he documents it, produces graphs of results and all sorts of pictures to support the project... all done using a brick and a rock to manufacture it... that would be cool and would probably have wide use in all sorts of small diesel engine includeing the lister/listeroids of <750 rpm. if he feels excluded where does he go?  maybe he just stays home and no one see's it.

i know this is an extreme example only made to illustrate my point..

my thinking is if one is to define the scope then dont narrow to much.  perhaps keeping with older design engines, such as the lister, petter, and ok,,, maybe the changfa to a lessor degree. make it all things that connect to the use of these engines, beit generation (with old generators, or newer alternators) heat exchangers (cogeneration) or as used to pump air/water or do useful work.

i dunno,,, seems like my government spends alot of time removing options, i really don't like the feel of removing options here.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2006, 07:16:28 PM »
Well let's see.

With my GM-90 8/1 I have a vertical single cylinder diesel with large flywheels that is made in India.

However, my RPM is a little above 750.

So I quack like a duck, and I walk like a duck, but because I walk a little to fast I’m not a duck.

This is just plain stupid.

Jim

BZZZZT!

Nope, that's not how it works. You don't get to tear holes in one idea without offering up a better one.

If your RPM is a little over 750, will 600 cover you? or 850? if so then suggest that.

Do you want this site to cater to people running 3300 RPM Volvo 2003's? Yes / No?

Either way you ARE making a decision, and drawing a line somehwere.

We have a couple of changfa people here already, and some who own nothing.

Not choosing is not not making a decision, you are still making a decision, just distancing yourself from it.

This question IS going to come in at some point in the future and decide the turning point for this site and these forums and the people here.

Do we want to be here because we like each other? or so we want to be here because we can like or dislike each other at will, but we have a common interest which happens to match what is written on that big sign over the entranceway?
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2006, 07:24:43 PM »

sure not everyone or everything is directly connected to a <750rpm lister, but there are those that develope idea's, processes and procedures on other engines that simply will take their ball and go home if they feel excluded. This is a serious loss in my mind.


exactly

How about a 500 RPM 3 HP steam engine?

How about a Stirling engine?

How about an Arrow or something running on methane?

Each of these people could talk about interesting and relevant things.

How about a loon running a how made turbocharger based turbine burning sawdust?

me, I'd listen to all of them, if this was strictly lister, nothing else, not even gen heads, why come here, I have an original working one that will last my lifetime, and with that attitude this site would have literally nothing to offer me.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

mobile_bob

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2006, 07:32:23 PM »
Guy:

i understand your points and they are well taken at least by me...

you are absolutely correct in that this discussion will inevitably arrise at some point, so it is far better to do so earlier that to wait and make a hasty not well thought out change.

i cant get my hands on an original lister, or at least not economically so.

what i have managed to do is purchase a number of engines (pre ban) one of which is a 25/2 listeroid that is governed at i think 1000 rpm, i suppose i could turn it back to 750 rpm or claim to do so to feel at home here.

i think with the ban, we need to include a few other engines, such as the petters and changfa's.. there arent going to be more of them brought in legally so the numbers are not huge anyway.

i would agree in that i too would not want to see volvo's (which i hate, dispise, lothe.... did i mention hate) or 12v149 detroit gensets and all the other stuff in between..

i still think that keeping it to one and two cylinder engines, of basic or old school design would limit or specialize the board sufficiently to keep the quality or integrity of the forum.

what to you think?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2006, 07:40:11 PM »
G

what to you think?

bob g

I think my thoughts on the matter are quite clear, so it ain't for me to say, it is for everyone else to have a say, and for those who actually make the rules (admin and domain owner) to call the tune.

they need to plan too....

if this site is going to have 1000 members in 12 months time, take 6 gig server footprint and consume 5 gig of bandwidth a week, that costs someone time and money, and they need to plan for that and see how to make it back somehow.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

jimmer

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2006, 07:41:53 PM »
It seems to me that a good criteria would be a Lister clone made in India.

I feel we should exclude the original Lister engines as they are not relevant.

The vast majority of forum members own clones and are simply interested in getting the most out of them.

I don't give a rats ass about the original Listers. I do however want my clone to run as reliably as possible.

Jim

ixtow

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2006, 07:51:02 PM »
What about Petters and Changfas?  Did Lister not merge with Petter?  Changfa is still available in a lot of places outside of the USA.  I think it's as arrogant and arbitrary as the EPA itself, to place board limits based on a geographical governmental stupidity.  This site is global.

How about non-modern, unconventional, non-throw-away, stuff that actually WORKS!  I'll take a half-assed Indian Lister over a Honda 3600rpm gas-burner any day...

I'd prefer to see an "1800rpm and below" limit instead.  The oddball engines aren't taking up too much space/pipe here, and aren't a big enough topic to start their own forum.  I think we'd do ourselves, and others, a dis-service to exclude something that small.

I'll go delete the post about my trucks then.....

GuyFawkes

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2006, 08:12:56 PM »
It seems to me that a good criteria would be a Lister clone made in India.

I feel we should exclude the original Lister engines as they are not relevant.

The vast majority of forum members own clones and are simply interested in getting the most out of them.

I don't give a rats ass about the original Listers. I do however want my clone to run as reliably as possible.

Jim

that would be like rover v8 and TVR sites excluding anyone with a buick, because they only invented the engine in question.

how you think you are going to "get the most" out of your clone, while excluding the body of knowledge that contains everything that the originals stand for, will be quite a challenge.

like sweeping water uphill, it can be done, by why make obstacles for yourself?
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

jimmer

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2006, 08:22:54 PM »
Quote
how you think you are going to "get the most" out of your clone, while excluding the body of knowledge that contains everything that the originals stand for, will be quite a challenge.
Quote

What body of knowledge are you referring to? Your rants and babbling?

Jim

Andre Blanchard

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2006, 08:29:44 PM »
Seems to me the site is already setup to handle a lot of different engine types with different areas for Listers, Listeroids, Generators, etc. and the all inclusive General Discussion.
Guy has just shown how easy it is to add a new area, ask for a new area and it shows up the next day.
If we get a lot of discussion going about some engine type that is not currently covered it should be just as easy to setup an area just for that type.

And if you want steam engines I got two stationary engines one 8" by 8" with a 30" flywheel and one 8" by 12" with 48" flywheels.  A little more then 3HP but would not want to be around either at 500 rpm, even the little one has close to 100 lbs of reciprocating iron and no counter weights on the crank. :o
______________
Andre' B

GuyFawkes

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2006, 08:40:23 PM »
Quote
how you think you are going to "get the most" out of your clone, while excluding the body of knowledge that contains everything that the originals stand for, will be quite a challenge.
Quote

What body of knowledge are you referring to? Your rants and babbling?

Jim

you see, you make my point for me.

for whatever reasons, you have decided you do not like me, and from there you go on to decide that since you do not like me, everything I say must be rubbish.

now, where does that get you?

serious question.

what have you personally got out of that?

answer, less than nothing.

i'm still here, but you have started down the groupthink road, where it is more important to you to be with those who will pander to your ego than those who can help you or educate you, and by doing this you force everyone else to make a decision too, do they;

1/ stick by you because they know you
2/ stick by me because they know me
3/ abstain from the process and form the passive third group, who will eventually fade away by attrition anyway.

that is YOUR solution, YOUR way of doing things.

MY way is different.

My way is I can fall out with one or two people, and when we have fallen out we both can continue posting, even to the same thread, we just stay off standing on each others toes and nobody else has to pick sides.

that leaves the door open for me and them to stumble across something in future we agree upon, and perhaps decide we like each other after all.

"my way or the highway" doesn't cut it, unless you own the highway of course, which you don't.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2006, 08:41:29 PM »

And if you want steam engines I got two stationary engines one 8" by 8" with a 30" flywheel and one 8" by 12" with 48" flywheels.  A little more then 3HP but would not want to be around either at 500 rpm, even the little one has close to 100 lbs of reciprocating iron and no counter weights on the crank. :o


yes I want, at the very least you can post links to some pictures.....

I think you should give me one of your engines, that is much fairer...  ::)
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

jimmer

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Re: All members - some thoughts.
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2006, 08:54:34 PM »
Quote

you see, you make my point for me.

for whatever reasons, you have decided you do not like me, and from there you go on to decide that since you do not like me, everything I say must be rubbish.

now, where does that get you?

serious question.

what have you personally got out of that?

answer, less than nothing.

i'm still here, but you have started down the groupthink road, where it is more important to you to be with those who will pander to your ego than those who can help you or educate you, and by doing this you force everyone else to make a decision too, do they;

1/ stick by you because they know you
2/ stick by me because they know me
3/ abstain from the process and form the passive third group, who will eventually fade away by attrition anyway.

that is YOUR solution, YOUR way of doing things.

MY way is different.

My way is I can fall out with one or two people, and when we have fallen out we both can continue posting, even to the same thread, we just stay off standing on each others toes and nobody else has to pick sides.

that leaves the door open for me and them to stumble across something in future we agree upon, and perhaps decide we like each other after all.

"my way or the highway" doesn't cut it, unless you own the highway of course, which you don't.

bab·ble  (bbl)
v. bab·bled, bab·bling, bab·bles
v.intr.
1. To utter a meaningless confusion of words or sounds:

I think I am done conversing with you on this subject.

Feel free to keep babbling.

Jim