Author Topic: Lister (??) on ebay  (Read 8824 times)

listerdiesel

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Lister (??) on ebay
« on: December 15, 2011, 10:53:26 AM »
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-LISTER-CS-TYPE-PORTABLE-STATIONARY-ENGINE-NOT-LIVE-STEAM-DIESEL-GENERATOR-/280791409889?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item416078e4e1

I have my doubts and have asked the question as to the maker.

Looks like an Indian clone, badged up as a Lister, so possible copyright infringement as well.

Happy to be proven wrong....

Peter

listerdiesel

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2011, 11:37:40 AM »
Had a reply back:

"These engines are of the Lister CS Type design. These engine are supplied
 and build by oursleves. Check out our website to find out about other
 engines we replicate, including Tractin Engines, Railway Locomotives,
 Tractors and much more. Regards GNS Co Ltd"

So they are NOT Lister at all, and putting a plate on the side that says "Manufactured by R A Lister, Dursley, England" is a blatant misrepresentation and breach of both copyright and trademarks.

They are importing stuff from India and assembling in the UK. They could not make that engine themselves in the UK for that money.

Peter

dieselgman

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2011, 02:01:22 PM »
That is pretty clear that those are Indian parts even judging from the pictures... and most likely just a learning process for the seller (regarding trademarks), and perhaps honesty... I agree that it is a good thing for additional supplies and sources to be made available, but it would be terrible for an unknowing customer to be mislead. That is my only concern.

Now if they really wanted to do something special - why not change the system in one little piece of India and actually take manufacturing under one roof and tool up to do justice to these things? The Indians are perfectly capable of providing high quality and their costs are relatively low in terms of resources, infrastructure and labor issues. They need to be shown that the world will still support a premium product - assuming that this is indeed the case.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 01:16:46 AM by dieselgman »
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Tom

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2011, 06:13:15 PM »
Well maybe the parts of the world not under the jurisdiction of the EPA will support a premium product.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

listerdiesel

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2011, 06:52:32 PM »
Now if they really wanted to do something special - why not change the system in one little piece of India and actually take manufacturing under one roof and tool up to do justice to these things? The Indians are perfectly capable of providing high quality and their costs are relatively low in terms of resources, infrastructure and labor issues. They need to be shown that the world will still support a premium product - assuming that this is indeed the case.
dieselgman

I spent 13 weeks in Delhi in the early 1980's, and you have to see the place to believe it, even today.

Their problem is that labour is dirt cheap, so rather than make things to a standard, they will make hundreds of a part and pick out the best, then try and rectify the remainder.

At the level of making these engines and parts, it is a series of cottage industries feeding a larger operation, quality control as we know it does not exist, machining is often on worn out tooling and machinery bought from the west as throwouts.

I remember a window frame maker we went to, we were after a radiator mount to be fabricated. The guy had 20 or more people, working on a dirt floor, cutting strips of metal up with a chisel and large hammer, he said he couldn't afford a hacksaw and anyway didn't have power on long enough to use such a thing. Welding was in fits and starts as power was available.

That was 31 years ago, 1980/81 Xmas, and I don't think that much has changed.

There remains a very large margin between the costs of producing the component parts and what we are asked to pay over here in the west.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 09:52:35 AM by listerdiesel »

dieselgman

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 07:06:22 PM »
Thanks Peter, I also spent some time there in Delhi, Mumbai, and Pune in 2002 and observed much the same... however there are also some larger operators with better tooling and somewhat more modern conditions. I still agree that it is unlikely to take any small concern and make any headway in that system, it would still take million-dollar financing and consistent outside oversight to make it work.

I also remember observing some of their public works projects... they own the heavy equipment to do excavation and material handling, but it was mostly being done by hand while that heavy equipment sat idle because people have to eat! I guess it is something like 15 million + people jammed into Delhi these days! Most of them very poor and a huge social problem overall.

In the big scheme of things, I guess I don't really mind having to sort a lot of junk to get the stuff we can actually use here. All along the way we are supporting people down through their economic networks and that has to count for something.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 07:09:54 PM by dieselgman »
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Lester

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2011, 09:43:53 PM »
Well maybe the parts of the world not under the jurisdiction of the EPA will support a premium product.

We here at Calder Construction Inc. IE justliveoffgrid.com Would like to think we have the best quality product of Listeroid engines and compressors (built in India) available in North America.

We started this venture over a year ago and we listened to people like you people here on this form (which i must say has the most informed and talented people from all over the world) complaining about how poor the workmanship was of the Indian
manufactures. With this in mind we started to look for a company in India to manufacture a quality Listeroid engine with quality
being top priority. After sifting through all the different company's we chose POWER-ANAND headed by Atul Patel after talking with him he agreed to build us a quality product and a quality product he built!!! We also met Atul in West VA in May of this year while he was visiting his brother on vacation. We instilled on him the importance of having a quality product to have available to the North American market.

To be continued









Tom

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2011, 10:09:48 PM »
I'm sure you did. It will be interesting to see what shows up in the crate. How many did you order? No worries about the EPA?
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Lester

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2011, 10:35:19 PM »
As i was saying in my last post. After 8 long months of waiting for our shipment (well worth the wait) and a lot of hard work, we were ecstatic. I would like to thank Mr Atul Patel his company POWER-ANAND and all his colleges for an outstanding job manufacturing this product.

My intent was not to come on this forum to just blow our horn. It was to show what one company has done to improve the quality of the India lesteroid.

I thank you for your time.

Lester (Doug)

PS Diesalman Thank you for all the input you give us on this forum

Lester

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2011, 10:50:37 PM »
I'm sure you did. It will be interesting to see what shows up in the crate. How many did you order? No worries about the EPA?

Hi Tom...... We ordered 30 engines and compressors a full container. And what showed up in the crate was a perfect Listeroid.

Tom we opened up a 6/1 electric start and after making a few miner adjustments put oil in the crank case fuel in the fuel tank and it fired right up and pured like a kitten.

We do not have EPA issues in Canada

dieselgman

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2011, 11:00:41 PM »
We are familiar with Mr. Patel and also Power Anand as many on this forum are... he is a fine fellow. I know, from the inside, that Anand has all the same supply issues that the rest of the builders do. Hopefully they will remain consistent regarding getting you the better quality components and provide good assembled units!

Now, what I was commenting on has to do with much higher quality castings and metallurgy than the standards currently in place or even available anywhere in India in regards to Lister components. Anand is not likely to do anything in this regard - at least to my knowledge or those nearby who know them... the costs would likely be double or more for those kinds of components and Anand would have to become a true manufacturer - and produce their own components. Very few companies are of this scale over there, and small export business normally does not have direct access to them. Start by talking 1,000 or greater quantity per order to even get a foot in the door. Most of the small companies form business relationships in a mutual web framework and then by extension make the claims that they are therefore the manufacturer. I have heard it time and again over my years of doing business there - Mostly an exercise in frustration. Honesty and transparency seems to be lacking. If someone should choose to go back to the Lister standards in craftsmanship and materials quality - then we would really have something worth pursuing! I know in this day and age that is an impractical ideal.

dieselgman
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listerdiesel

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2011, 10:07:12 AM »
I had a long chat with David Harris yesterday, David has been intrumental in providing help for Lister owners worldwide after he retired from Listers.

Most of what was R A Lister is gone, there is housing and a new hospital on the old site, and what remains is a very small assembly operation.

At their peak, Lister employed nearly 4000 people, and if you add Petter and the other ABOEM companies like J H McLaren, Oil Engines (Coventry) etc etc then you're probably looking at 10,000 jobs.

Where did it all go?

The market that Lister sold into was a captive one made up of the UK and Commonwealth countries, plus a fair bit of the rest of the worlds.

Cost competitiveness was the first problem, UK wages couldn't compete with far eastern, and as the Japanese and Malaysians have found out, they in turn cannot compete with the Koreans and Chinese.

So we can now buy a small petrol engines generator on ebay for £120 or $200, it's a load of cr*p and the construction quality is poor, but they sell well and keep someone in work in those countries.

We don't make much any more in the UK, apart from the car industry which isn't doing too badly, but our manufacturing base is very low and only accounts for about 7% of GDP.

When the Chinese and Korean workers get to the 2-car household level, they will probably struggle to find a cheap source for their purchases, as their own products will be too expensive.

Peter




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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2011, 02:27:36 PM »
Thanks Peter,

Sad to see old companies like Lister falling by the wayside! America has also gradually lost its manufacturing base, it is hard to find anything NOT made in China these days, although it is still possible with a bit of extra effort. I noted in the past few years that Marathon Electric has shifted their USA manufacturing operations to China, we use a lot of their product and it used to be THE premium American made generator head for most of our business! I think the jury is still out regarding the impacts on quality.

Global economics will take over and shake up everything in our world, sign of the times!
So how do we adjust to this new reality?

dieselgman
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billdrilling

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Re: Lister (??) on ebay
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2011, 02:34:38 PM »
Very few companies build complete components in America anymore. I rebuilt a 15 ft john deere rotary mower with oem parts , the u joints didn't seem to fit like they should and the whole thing blew up 2 days later. Rebuilt with spicer components and all is good. Nowadays you have to hunt for quality. I would gladly pay extra for American or European made parts. Bill