Author Topic: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????  (Read 8423 times)

Billyrob

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New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« on: November 23, 2011, 02:14:45 AM »
Hi Guys,

I realize this topic has been touched upon in many threads but I would like a bit of advice........

OK, I have a new Listeroid 6 HP "Powerline" engine that I purchased from nice folks at "Just Live Off Grid".   The engine looks very good (from the outside) and I am happy with it.   I realize that it would be prudent of me to do some inspection and any necessary cleaning/ adjustments before the engine is run for the first time.     

Jim Calder has already had one of the engines from this lot apart and said it was very clean.     I recall him saying that he asked that the internal surfaces of these engines NOT be painted so that sand could not be trapped by the paint.   I have not opened up my engine yet.

I have a lot of time this winter, so I am not in a hurry to get the engine running.    What I would like to do is make a list of those items that the more experienced members of this forum feel are important to do/ check before a new engine is run.

A proper concrete base, cooling system, exhaust and fuel system will be in place before I start this motor.  I think I have a good feel for the "external equipment" requirements of these motors.    However I have had no experience is preparing an Indian listeroid for a safe first start.

I an anxious to learn from the folks who have "been there, done that".

Cheers !!!


Bill

38ac

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 02:33:12 AM »
Hows your gambling luck? Clean is't your only worry. Shody assembly, sub standard parts, Just plain wrong parts all make there way past QC in India. Can't say it isn't possible to get a clean engine that was assembled correctly in India, I will say it isn't probable. Name brand doesnt mean much to me. I have 5 differant brands and to tell you the truth the worst of the lot is a Powerline. I'm  not knocking Jim's engines, just stating that name plate doesnt mean I wouldn't take it comepletly down and assemble it correctly.
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Billyrob

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 03:12:50 AM »
Hi 38AC,

Yes, I think that everyone agrees with you that Indian QC is not what we are use to in North America.    Some products are getting better.

As far as the Listeroids,  No I am not a gambling man.    I realize that there can be be many quality control issues that can cause problems.    That is why I am prepared to inspect/ correct any of the issues that I find.     I am sure that many members of this forum have had problems.

I am interested in learning from your experiences so that maybe I can avoid problems of my own.

I have lots of time to work on this.    I am just looking for some direction on what I should be doing.

Best regards !!

Bill

ronmar

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 04:55:19 AM »
Well where to start is to completely disassemble it.  These engines are pretty simple, and if you re-install nuts and bolts into their holes and studs as you take bits off, the hardware will prettymuch take care of itself.  The house starts with the foundation, so after it is completely apart, I would reccomend starting at the bottom and working up.  Flip the main casting upside down and start by leveling, and placing the 4 feet onto the same plane.  The feet on mine were not that great, and I spent a fair bit of time with a file guide bar I made, getting the resting surface of the feet so i could sight across all four surfaces from any other surface.  This is fairly easy with a guide bar.  This thing needs to be bolted down tight.  If you attempt to bolt down to a flat base with uneven feet, you will be placing stresses into a cast iron case that really shouldn't be there.

Next is the case interior.  Not being painted is good, as it should be clean of sand, and you can easilly check this.  Lots of places inside that are hard to see even when stripped down, let your bare fingers do the walking...  You will probably want to paint it yourself as the cast iron is porus, and a layer of paint inside after it is cleaned and inspected will help to keep the oil inside:)

Next I would work on the deck.  The deck is the top of the case where the head studs go and the cylinder rests.  You may have noticed when you took the engine apart that you had half gaskets under the base of the cylinder toward one flywheel or the other. These gaskets are to get the cylinder bore perpendicular to the crankshaft.  The reason this dosn't happen naturally, is the case holes where the crankshaft bearing carriers go are not machined parallel to the deck.  This may be due to uneven feet on the case:) and the fact it is a dam big and heavy casting to position accurately...  Half gaskets are acceptable, but if you have the tools and the talent you can modify the case and rollerbearing carriers to be parallel with the deck, then a single gasket can be used.  The one tool you should probably have is a machinest precision level.  This and some inginuity and you can walk thru measuring parts to check for proper alignment fairly easilly.  You continue to work your way up with cylinder and liner checking for perpendicular and square, with the final adjustments being made with half gaskets as necessary and using differential squish as a measuring tool.  

I did a complete writeup once upon a long time ago, I will try and find it and I can E-mail it to you if you wish...  I would say as you start with these things, start posting questions here. It is going to be a bit of work, but it is SO COOL when it puffs for the first time after you crank it up to speed:)

Good luck.
Ron
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 02:51:53 PM by ronmar »
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dieselgman

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 06:58:52 AM »
I recommend taking a look at Murray King's project engine. He built one of our 8/1s a couple years back, did a magnificent job of cleaning her up, and fully documenting in pictures.

He also did some very nice externals and it is well worth taking a long look.

His posting is at https://picasaweb.google.com/106543823997851361941/ListerPictures?fgl=true&pli=1#

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38ac

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 11:31:26 AM »
My hat is off to Murray for the excellent documentation, wow! What happens to me is halfway through I think about taking a few pictures.  What he found is what I find no matter what make is cast into the crankcase door.

no matter if purchased assembled or not these engines are best thought of as a set of parts to build upon, that's my opinion.
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Quinnf

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 04:55:31 PM »
If you've got the time, it's well worthwhile to strip it down all the way.  Even below the paint, so you can see what you've really got.  I've done that on two engines and the process of putting them back together and making them "right" was easy and fun.  The parts count being so low, it's not like assembling a V-8, or even a motorcycle engine.  

I got a plastic trashcan and filled it about 1/4 full of hot water, then dunped in a couple cans of "crystal drain cleaner" from Home Depot.  Mostly lye (sodium hydroxide).  After mixing that, I added all the cast parts, added enough hot water to just cover the top of everything, then dropped in a small plastic submersible fountain pump to circulate the mix.  Next day, the paint was gone and the parts were clean.  If you can find a shop nearby that has a dip tank and can shot peen the castings, that's better, but I was unable to locate one, so I did it myself.

Pay attention to the half gaskets.  They were put there to make sure the axis of the cylinder bore is perpendicular to that of the crankshaft.  

Quinn
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 03:18:09 PM by Quinnf »
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fuelfarmer

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2011, 06:25:37 PM »
Good topic. I have a kit engine (8/1) that came with the top end disassembled. I am trying to talk myself out of taking the bottom end apart. Here is my lazy thought process. If I take it apart and every thing looks good it would have been a waste of time. I am not even sure what good looks like at this time. If I get it running and something fails in the bottom end, then I can take it apart and do what i should have done in the first place. Just one tear down either way.

There is always the chance that I am not smart enough to get this thing running. So taking the bottom apart might just make a bigger pile of parts. The engine does not look to bad inside, so i am thinking about cleaning it the best I can and then trying to get it running. I am willing to take my beating later. There is a chance that someone could change my mind.

injin man

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2011, 07:05:45 PM »
I'm presuming that Jim's engines can't be shipped stateside?


dieselgman

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2011, 07:37:48 PM »
Fuelfarmer, we have had clients go either way and have fine results. It is only an occasional problem that crops up unnoticed in the bottom end, not too high a risk even if there are some issues. These being extremely robust designs, generally can run a productive life even with some minor problems left behind. In your case, the most intricate assemblies are apart and you can gain ready access to the camshaft for close inspection, polishing lobes etc.. I recommend checking the fit of your valves for sure because they are not always finished to perfection and that is pretty easy to do.

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Lowrad

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 07:48:00 PM »
He can ship the engine has a compressor and ship separately a diesel kit you can install yourself.

I'm presuming that Jim's engines can't be shipped stateside?



Billyrob

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 12:50:30 PM »
Dieselgman,

Thanks for the link to Murray King's pictures.    A very impressive story that is nicely documented.    He certainly did a lot of work and was very thorough in his engine preparation.

I will try to see if I can download his album.   I am not sure how to do it, but there are far too many pictures to download one-at-a-time.

A point to Note !!!!!

It is very unlikely that my wife will let me share her kitchen with Lister engine parts as Murray did !!!!!
    ;D

I like his cleaning shortcuts with the "shot peen" process from an automotive engine shop.    I will have to investigate if any shops offer that service around here.

I was out to see Jim Calder (Just Live Off Grid) yesterday to get a few more spare parts.  While I was there he started one of the engines he recently received.    It ran very well and started easily.

I am beginning to think that a complete engine dissassembly is in the future for me.   I am a fussy sort of guy who will soon have lots of time to play with it.

Cheers,

Bill
   

38ac

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 02:29:42 PM »
   I am a fussy sort of guy who will soon have lots of time to play with it.

Cheers,

Bill
   

That tells me all I need to know, tear her down.  As long as the 'wheel keys were not installed with a 50 lb sledge its not a bad job and you will know your engine well when it does need work.
I'll bet you a brew that you WILL find something that will make you glad you took it down.
Good luck!
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dieselgman

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 03:46:31 PM »
I second that Butch! A completely known quantity is better than a guess on these any day of the week! It really is a question of time and effort available vs expectations for the completed project. Some folks figure that "time is money" and these things can get pretty expensive in that case.

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Horsepoor

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Re: New Engine - Tear Down and Clean - How far do you go ????
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 08:08:26 AM »
Never fear a Gib Key again. Last year, I purchased a gib key removal tool from the below link, among other parts. Before this, I used a home made device, but this one is fantastic, have not found a gib key that it will not remove, yet.

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/Gib_Key_Puller.asp?page=Gib_Key_Puller
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 08:12:05 AM by Horsepoor »
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