Puppeteer

Author Topic: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?  (Read 20878 times)

SHIPCHIEF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 04:09:43 AM »
I agree with cujet;
If you don't mind spending about $7000, a modern 3 cyl Isuzu is a top choice. 13 KVa is a lot of power, unless you run a heat pump or something, then you would probably need it.
I dream of such a genset.
I was thinking of the lower price point when mentioning used Lister air cooled gensets and ONANs.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

fuelfarmer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 02:31:49 PM »
If I was going to live long term with a generator and live my energy hog life style I would get a 2-71 Detroit diesel gen set. There are tons of them around in different price ranges. They are low speed, (1200 rpm) and will burn a wide range of crap if you are brave, or desperate enough to dump swill into the tank.

Saw this on youtube, don't know the people.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6DuFlnIFKA[/youtube]

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 05:59:27 PM »
We still service a few of these old 2-cycle Detroits... antiquated mainly due to Fuel Consumption and parts costs issues!
IMHO you had best not even try running any kind of alternative fuel (other than clean biodiesel) in one of these beasties.
These are from the era of extremely cheap and unlimited amounts of diesel fuel.

All that said... these are undoubtedly very high-quality and dependable machines!

dieselgman
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:15:16 PM by dieselgman »
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

fuelfarmer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 06:17:06 PM »
We run home grown veggie oil in a 6-71 in the summer to pump water. No preheat,no love, just a shot of ether on cool mornings to get it to light off and the abuse begins. The old engine does not owe us anything, so we will run it until it does something bad.

We are looking at a 2-71 gen set to power an irrigation pivot system. Might just try feeding that thing veggie oil if we get one. We also make biodiesel that could be used to fuel the beast.

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 06:31:36 PM »
Absolutely, if you have it, run it! These things are Cadillacs - built to last! Somewhat peculiar to service due to the 2-cycle design, using a Supercharger for forced induction and some have turbos on top of that. They utilize a high-volume fuel ring and have mechanical injectors running straight off the camshaft, direct injection. Beware of governor issues and your choice of lube oils as they are quite fussy and expensive if anything goes wrong in that area. I think we spent almost $2,000 to have our last 6-71 Woodward governor rebuilt.

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

BigGreen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • Mach1Pony
Dave
More Power Ashwamegh 25/2 15kw

aqmxv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Duty Now for the Future
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 05:04:53 AM »
I know it's an old thread, but I thought I'd put in my $.02 anyway.

I had to deal with this exact problem.  I bought a Metro 6/1 and tore it down, then moved to another state and went back to school, so had no time to finish the build and get a generator running.  Then I went and bought a house up on top of a hill with terrible power utility reliability.

I needed a generator, I needed it to be reliable, electric start (so the wife could start it), and I needed it quickly.  I also needed to spend as little as practical on it.  The doctors on either side of us put in turnkey auto-start 10+ KW LPG units.  None of my cars cost that much, so I certainly couldn't afford that solution.  I also didn't want more than about 7 KW capacity because I wanted good efficiency and no wet stacking.

My friend with an addiction to large green trucks formerly owned by the US Military hooked me up with an ex-US Army MEP-002A for a very reasonable price.  It's a 2 cylinder four-stroke air cooled Onan design rated at a nominal 5KW, which sounded a little marginal, until I found out that the 5KW rating was at 10,000 ft MSL, 100% duty cycle, and 80% power factor.  The civilian generator with the same power head was rated at 8KW.  It's not auto-start, but it is electric start and comes with handy operating instructions on a metal plate atop the control cubicle.  Also has a neat output switch capability that gives you the choice of 120V/1ph, 240V/1ph or 208V/3ph.  Lots of people use these (and their larger 10KW sibling) to run 3 phase equipment in shops instead of paying the power utility to run a 3 phase feed.

It's rather loud, but it's also completely indestructable - The design has exactly two faults: 1: there is no overcurrent protection on the field circuit, so you can cook the voltage regulator if you idle it instead of just let it spin up to near 60 Hz as it is supposed to, and 2: the injection pump is a little fragile if the engine is allowed to sit and grow gunk in it.  That's it.  Fuel economy is pretty good: about 0.5 USG/hr at rated power.

That's what sits beside the shed waiting for the next ice storm.  When i get the listeroid put together it'll be a cogen system, and will be expected to provide supplemental heat and power from waste oil.  There's no easy way to do this with the military generator as it is air cooled and is (a little) pickier about its fuel.

The listeroid is a toy with practical applications that forms part of my long-term energy management strategy.  The military generator is reliable standby power here now.  I don't plan on getting rid of either one.
6/1 Metro IDI for home trigen

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 01:52:49 PM »
I am about three years into my slow speed diesel addiction. I came here initially looking for a generator head I could run with a tractor to be used for outages. I have no desire to be off-grid and back-up power is a whole 'nother subject in my opinion.  Looking backwards and applying all I have learned here and a few lessons I learned on my own I would say that a person really needs to spend time accessing and separating "needs" from "wants"  My goals then and now are 100% reliable back up power. I have accomplished that with two back up units. A 6HP Listeroid/ 5KW and a Chinese 1115/15KW. The larger unit so we can live  "normally" during an outage and the smaller unit to run over night to keep essentials operating.  Starting all over and discounting my new engine hobby I would go the route I first intended and run an a 15-20 KW ST head via PTO with one of our (many) tractors, dollar wise it would have been the smart choice. 
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 04:21:03 PM »
I have lived in Alaska for almost 40 years - basically ever since I got out of High School. I lived off-grid for a couple short periods - up to about 5 years at a stretch, and provided my own power during those times. Fuel costs were a bit tough, but nowhere near what they are today, and also in plentiful supply. The biggest single unplanned costs we had to contend with turned out to be maintenance and replacements. We started out with 3600 rpm Honda V-twins that generally worked great out-of-the-box but would self destruct (and did so consistently) after about a year of continuous use. At least one of them failed after only about 4 months. I believe we ran out 4 of these before discovering the 1800 rpm Listers that we could salvage from oil company surplus and rebuild. After running the much more efficient Lister SR and ST models we knew we were on the right track. Initial costs were pretty high to get them into shape but then they would just run and run with very little trouble at all. These are the mid 60's to mid 80's designs that mostly had oversized Marathon 3-phase brushless heads in a fairly compact and tidy package. We mostly ran the twins but also had some singles around as well, I think we got 25,000 hours on one of our ST2 twins and even then it was lagging in power but still operational. I did not become familiar with the older slow-speed CS variety until about 10 years ago and while they are fascinating and offer some substantial advantages for alternative fuels, economy, and quite a bit of 'geek' appeal, I personally still prefer the air-cooled 1800 rpm Lister for its simplicity and other more modern safety features that are standard equipment.

My ideal setup - one of the old 8/1 CS original Dursleys setup for failsafe - and for normal emergency backup, one of the more modern air-cooled twins like a TS, TL or TX with brushless Marathon 3-phase head. Both would power an inverter and battery bank such that 24 hour operation would not be required. This assumes that setup cost is not the primary driver, but rather long term reliability for fuel shortages and reducing excessive fuel costs.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 04:47:47 PM by dieselgman »
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

Simtech

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2012, 05:39:33 PM »
After much thought I'm going with a natural gas backup genny w/ autoswitchover package.  That'll cover 99.5% of the outages.

The listeroid is for my longterm SHTF planning - at least thats my stated reason, mostly though it'll be for the fun tinkering aspect.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2012, 07:22:21 PM »
I think you made a good decision, Simtech. I love my Listeroid 6/1 but wouldn't want life support for a spouse to depend on it. Too much service (oiling external pushrods) for one thing.

I started out as a tech for Singer Simulation in the mid 70's, working my way through college. Then helped develop sims for the A-10, F16, TR-1, Advanced Apache while working for various contractors and as a civilian USAF.  What birds are you supporting these days???

I was surprised to read motion bases were there- they were proved unnecessary for training with visual systems in the late 70's, many times over. Our training research lab once had a blow hard General insist that motion was critical, even after several research projects had proved otherwise.  Half way into his flight (F-16 I think) the operators shut down the giant high pressure hydraulic motion system, just leaving the pneumtic G-seat and G-suit simulation systems active. He came out of his simulated mission, still certain in his beliefs, and had no idea that we'd turned it off half way through. Apparently, the irrational, emotional thinking continues!

Bruce M
Concho, AZ



Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1746
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2012, 07:39:38 PM »
Good choice Simtec. IIRC you're moving to Puget sound? How reliable will the Nat gas be vs. a large LP tank? I'm thinking EQ issues with Nat gas.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2012, 07:44:39 PM »
SR is the slightly older and smaller displacement model - available in 1, 2, and 3 cylinder versions. The ST is a bit more robust and slightly larger displacement... choose this one if you have a choice between the two.

SR models preceded the ST in production... SRs basically through the 60s, STs into the mid 70s. The ST is a higher horsepower and more robust overall design on the same basic footprint. Of all the older air-cooled units, the ST has the best reliability and most solidly designed internals.

These smaller air-cooled engines are less forgiving of alternative fuels than the Listeroids - SR and ST are direct injected, combustion chamber is actually in the piston crown, ports are small and more likely to choke with carbon, and yes... the mechanical clatter from these is much louder than the water-cooled varieties.

You can get water-cooled SRs and STs but they are relatively rare except in maritime service.

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

Simtech

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2012, 09:14:36 PM »
I started out as a tech for Singer Simulation in the mid 70's, working my way through college. Then helped develop sims for the A-10, F16, TR-1, Advanced Apache while working for various contractors and as a civilian USAF.  What birds are you supporting these days???

I was surprised to read motion bases were there- they were proved unnecessary for training with visual systems in the late 70's, many times over. Our training research lab once had a blow hard General insist that motion was critical, even after several research projects had proved otherwise.  Half way into his flight (F-16 I think) the operators shut down the giant high pressure hydraulic motion system, just leaving the pneumtic G-seat and G-suit simulation systems active. He came out of his simulated mission, still certain in his beliefs, and had no idea that we'd turned it off half way through. Apparently, the irrational, emotional thinking continues!

Bruce M
Concho, AZ
I'm working on the C17 simulators at McChord, there's a pack of 3 full motion sims over here.  Its probably the best job there is, short of working for Mythbusters.  The sheer variety of things I encounter is staggering.

@Tom, We just moved into our house yesterday in Gig Harbor

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: If you knew then what you know now, what would you buy for backup power?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 02:01:20 AM »
Simtech-
I felt the same way when I was working on military simulators- virtually everything in engineering is there-cutting edge real-time computing, all sorts of wild and woolly digital and analog electronics, hydraulics, pneumatics, image generators, projection systems, displays. The best tech toys in the world.

I left for a while for much more money in the commercial sector- it was BORING by comparison.

Have fun!
Bruce M
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 02:18:54 AM by BruceM »