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Author Topic: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?  (Read 29948 times)

Jim Mc

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2006, 06:16:38 PM »
...but water vapor can be condensed and CO2 is a heavy gas... I think part of the sucess with my system has to do with the design of the intake accumulator / propane tank and the way that the recycled gas enters and leaves the container.. ... The cooled exhaust is being returned in such a way that is spins the gasses.. like a cyclonic separator for sawdust that mills use...

Yes, water vapor can be condensed and removed with relative ease.  And yes, cyclonic separators work well for separating particles of dust from air.  But the big leap you propose - that a cyclonic separator can separate CO2 from an exhaust stream needs some substantiation from you.

Yes, I am being critical.  Feel free to come up with 'new' ideas.  And feel free to ignore what chemists and physisists have learned about solutions in the last 500 years or so.    Please just seperate your theories from generally established facts.  I'm certainly not saying that there is nothing new to be discovered in this area, rather that it's been pretty well established about how solutiuons work.  What evidence do you have that your cyclonic separator is even remotely effective at concentrating CO2 at the bottom port? 

As I read your described system, it's obvious to me that the CO2 content in the recirculated gases is very high - and you don't say what load you're putting on the engine - If it's a small load, you don't need much O2 in the mixture for the engine to run.  Try putting a full load on the engine and see what happens. 

Please read up a bit on solutions.  Think on this for a second.  Go to your kitchen.  Pull out a bottle of Maple Syrup.  It's basically a solution of sugar dissolved in water.  Guess what - the suger molecules are much heavier than the water molecules - but you won't find a significantly increased concentration of sugar at the bottom of the bottle - no matter how long it's been sitting in your kitchen.

If you really do have a solution for separating gases of similar molecular weight, you better rush to a patent attorney.  It may already be too late, as you've already put it the public domain here.  Shame, too because it would be of huge value.  Bottled gas companies spend huge sums of money to separate air into its constituent gases, and the main way they do it is through liquification/fractional distallation, which is a very expensive and energy consuming process.


fattywagonman

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2006, 07:23:10 PM »
I never ment to imply that the CO2 was being seperated from other gases.. It's just that where the outlet is located I think most of the gas is CO2... I'm sure some small vollume of unburned HC's are there along with some N and some NOX... it's just that I think the steps I've taken to reduce NOX  (like lowering the compression, recirulating the cooled exhaust, and having a higher moisture content than normal at the intake) and the other steps I've taken to improve combustion (like heating the injector line) will make for a low percentage of NOX and HC's..   
The really cool thing is that I can give this engine a burst of fuel... one that would result in a big clowd of smoke if the exhaust was not reciculated... and there is no noticable smoke comming out of the reliefe / exhaust port ...
The purpose of my post was to find out if anyone else had tried doing this... I also thought others might benefit from doing something similar..  I don't really want to get into a big debate about how or why it works untill some other folks give it a try..  I guess I could just keep the idea to myself then I wouldn't need to field the questions....  But that's not the spirit of a forum.. the idea is to share not keep secrets.. no sharing ='s no forum... so I decided to share.. So far other than a couple of patents I can't find out much information on this type of a system....

Firebrick

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2006, 10:51:09 PM »
Most but not all of the new epa compliant diesels do use cooled egr to recirculate gases.  This ends up costing horsepower, decreases durability,  and increases fuel consumption but that is because of the higher heat load that has to be rejected and thus larger water pump/fan.  Your system shouldnt have that problem and is interesting that it could possibly meter the air coming in.  The only real problem I see with the system is that it probly wouldnt be able to be tuned fine enough without computer controls on the air and a computer for the injection system. 

fattywagonman

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2006, 11:15:49 PM »
Quote
and increases fuel consumption but that is because of the higher heat load that has to be rejected and thus larger water pump/fan

Hi Firebrick,
You are correct... most newer diesels do use cooled or uncooled EGR to reduce NOX... But I'm not so sure your comment about why there are efficiency losses is correct..   Actually I'd bet that the slightly larger water pump and fan have little to no effect on the engines efficiency.. I think the efficiency losses are more related to heating of the intake charge and possibly lowered O2 concentration.. I'm not sure about this.. If you have some information that I don't I'm all ears... as far as decreasing the life and or durability... I have a friend with close to 400K miles on his 97 Dodge...  These engines use large vollumes of uncooled EGR... and seem to last almost indefinately..   

Dail R H

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2006, 12:26:35 AM »
   Did I miss something? Would it be feasible to strip the incoming air of nitrogen???---Guess if it was that simple,somebody would of done it already. Shows how much I know huh?

Firebrick

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2006, 01:02:39 AM »
Fatty,

I am talking large trucks 10-15 liters, that actually go about a million miles on the engine before rebuild.  When cummins and detroit put their egr systems on it reduced their reliability 100000-250000 miles.  Mainly from the heat in the valves/heads causing cut valve seats and faces.  The fans and pumps on these motors can draw a significant amount of power, 30 to 40 horse or more.  The fuel economy penalty would be around .6 - 1 percent. I belive the hot air does effect it some but probly just the horsepower as the computer only injects what can be used.    Doesnt sound like much but over the span of a million miles on a large fleet it can make a significant difference, and more so as gas prices rise.  They also weigh more causing less payload to be carried.

This shouldnt be a problem with you since the listers are siphon circulated as long as you had the space to put in a larger system to also cool the exhaust.  How cool is the exhaust going into the intake in your engine? 

More I thought about it the more I agree with others that you are not really getting rid of just the co2 but I still think you are reducing nox because the mixture is taking the place of excess o2 and nitrogen that would be neccessary to make more nox. 

I think that your aircompressor would use up as much power as it was saved by burning any leftover hydrocarbons from the low pressure injectors the listers use. Maybe a small electronically controlled varible vane turbo would work without power losses  but I am sure if such beast exsist that it would be more than the engine itself cost. 
 

fattywagonman

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2006, 03:15:40 AM »
Hi Firebrick,
Thanks for the reply...
OK I agree... I see you have your bases covered on the efficiency losses and reduction in life from EGR.. .6 - 1% seems to be a reasonable number...  I was using a shop type air compressor but am switching to an oiless vane compressor... the type for air injection on smog equiment... I think it will move the air with even less HP loss... maybe .25 to run it at most..   I have very little vollume of air going through the system... maybe 5 CFM @ 2-5 PSI.. If I starv it for air the engine will start making less power.... To calculate  the air required I ran the engine near open rack and kept taking away air untill it started to slow... then added some air back..  that way I know I'm adding enough air for combustion at full power... eventually the air compressor could somehow be tied to the rack to increase and decrease to output... As far as a variable vane turbo.. I have little interest in doing anything that high tech..  This is intended to be a low tech solution to reducing emissions.. The exhaust cooler is a natural for CHP applications... The recirculated exhaust is cooled to about 140F or less when it returns to the intake...

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2006, 05:12:04 AM »
How are you measuring your exhaust emissions? You may have decreased the NOx, but without measuring, how do you know? Meanwhile it seems the particulate matter would increase, along with CO due to incomplete combustion. Because the exhaust volume is always greater that the inlet volume, some exhaust is released with each cycle, and it seem to me a very polluting mixture of CO and unburned hydrocarbons.
Measurements and record keeping are required for research.
You are recirculating alot of nitrogen, and taking in more with each intake stroke. The oxygen gets used with the fuel, and some water drops out, but the CO2 and Nitrogen keep going back into the intake.?
Scott E
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Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

fattywagonman

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2006, 06:28:38 AM »
Did I miss something? Would it be feasible to strip the incoming air of nitrogen???---Guess if it was that simple,somebody would of done it already. Shows how much I know huh?

Hi Dale,
Yes it works...  I posted a link to the patent for doing exactly this earlier in the post..... I did it by using O2 from a bottle... but now after adding the air I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.. i don't know what my emissions are yet but I can assure you it's not much at all...

Scott the combustion is very complete... No visible smoke... none nada zip... I believe paticulates are nearly non existent... the main stuff comming out the reliefe is water... and I believe some unused O2, and some CO2... and N... but I doubt there is much NOX... or HC's...

I'll do some proper testing when I get the system more or less perfected... my buddy has a 5 gas..  untill then I'll just trust my gut.. nose... and eyes...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 06:49:00 AM by fattywagonman »

GuyFawkes

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2006, 12:39:50 PM »
I'm not sure what your main aims are here.

Are you trying to modify a lister so it can pass some arbitrary emissions test such as EPA?
If so, clearly it can be done, at a cost, there is ALWAYS a downside.

Let me explain my skepticism.

Some people in the states want to play with alternative fuels, and that is great. Now there were lots of "fuel analysis" engines made in the states, Caterpillar for one made vast numbers of them, because the best way to test an engine fuel is in an actual engine.

BTW the Cat engines were beauties, havent seen a 20/1 but I'd guess that's a similar size and weight, and lots of ancilliaries of course.

I would also assume that anyone doing this would acquaint themselves with the basics of combustion principles and thermodynamics, cos how else will you understand your results?

What we seem to get is people trying to make their feet fit the boots they happen to have, experimenting with multifuels in engines that weren't designed for it, and with no data acquisition ancilliaries whatsoever, seat of the pants stuff.

Fattywagon seems to be going this route from what I can gather, playing with EGR and suchlike.

To fattywagon, I am not trying to be insulting or flame you, but from what I have read it sounds to me as though you are exprimenting on how far you can de-tune a diesel by feeding it it's own waste products and still get it to run smoothish, with no attention paid to mechanical longevity or reliability.

I'm not knocking you, I think it is great that you're playing, but if you object is not mere play and learning, I wonder what you think you will achieve.

Say you get an "eureka" set of results. Just for the sake of argument (you won't, but for the sake of argument)

Where do we go from there?

Do I have to built an identical to the last detail system from scratch, and I mean identical to the thou EGR plumbing system etc, in order to duplicate your results?

Because it appears to me you don't have any data acquisition going on, none at all, so even when you get your "seat of your ass" results you are going to have to retrofit a bunch of DA hardware, and that is going to change everything.

If your goal is EPA emissions, you have two possible approaches.

1/ add a shit load of ancilliaries, microprocessor controlled, costing more than the listeroid, and absorbing at least 20% of the power output, and if you're going to do that you just threw away the only reason to run a lister, simplicity and longevity.

2/ reduce the effective swept volume to actual swept volume ratio and "fool" the EPA test that way

The above incidentally screwed norton when they built the rotary, because it was 2 stroke and not 4 stroke they rated it at 1500cc and not 750cc, so it couldn't compete in its design engine capacity class. This is as silly and arbitrary as EPA regs

There are two ways to screw with effective swept volume ratios

a/ screw with valve duration, which you are doing, and EGR is a wrinkle on that same theme, screwing with effective swept volume... it is a limited ploy and not something I'd consider with a lister, which is all about simple, so no point doing anything that makes it complex.

b/ screw with the camshafts, nobody says it has to be a 4 stroke, make it 6 stroke or 8 stroke and you'll beat those emissions regs, especially if you use those idle strokes to do something else, like injecting water.

----------------------------

The lister is like a good knife, it is elegant because of its simplicity, purity of form, minimalism, form following function, the only techie thing about the lister, and even by todays standards it is techie, is harry ricardos comet precombustion chamber, if you have a listeroid that doesn't have this then you are more screwed than ever when it comes to EPA

I must at some point put my lister through a vehicle emission test, it's a 6/1 relatively lightly loaded with a standard 2.5 kw head, and I'm betting it runs as clean as my indirect injection non turbo all mechanical 1900 cc 4 pot renault car diesel, which is really very very clean indeed, especially on european diesel.

Just because the design is 60 / 70 / 80 years old, doesn't mean it is bad, just because it was from before transistors and microelectronics and plastics, doesn't mean it is bad, some of the best knives are 100 year old designs.

The poppet valve is over a century old, it has its issues, but nobody has invented anything better, and this follows all the way through the lister, there aren't superior modern alternatives to any component, just cheaper ones.

And this brings us back to proper ricardo test engines and their clones
picture below


The fact is, this is the minimum level of kit you need to do these experiments and end up with results that are worth more than the paper they are printed on.

You can go out and buy one of these engines for big bucks, or build one up, for big bucks, that's it.

If it is all about a dream, fine, but SAY SO, don't tell other people your dream is reality, because they have different dreams.

======================

I have an old litmus test for this sort of thing.

I say to myself (about my latest greatest world shattering plan / invention / creation / scheme / whatever) "will a bank lend me money to go into production with this idea?" and god knows it is too easy to borrow money anyway.

I grew up reading "Boys Own" books, about the nice guy who got shafted by the nasty people who used him and discarded him building their racing cars, so he goes to the scrap yard and buys an old car and does it up and enters the race and WINS!!!!

Maybe that shit was possible 80 years ago, it isn't today.

You think you can maybe not compete on budget, or tech facilities at your disposal, but maybe have some idea that nobody else had before? Your idea better be implementable for 50 cents then, so ceramic coatings for the combustion chamber to limit absorbtion of free electrons and thus slow flame propogation are out.

-------------------------------

here's a thought for you.

fuel is about work done.

you have a job of work to do, move 10,000 tons of foodstuffs daily 200 miles into a big city.

diesel engines are far more efficient for this task than petrol, thanks to the high compression ratios.

diesel engines are far more polluting according to the EPA and NOx emissions, thanls to the high compression ratios.

low compression engines will satisfy the EPA and NOx emissions, but you do three or four times as many trips because tons of load shifted per gallon of fuel used just dropped through the floor.

so the stinky high compression diesel pumping out NOx actually pumps out LESS to do a given job than EPA complaint green low compression engines.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

fattywagonman

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2006, 03:27:06 PM »
Quote
Maybe that shit was possible 80 years ago, it isn't today.

Hi Guy,

This is an interesting comment... And I think it gives some insight as to how you think and  why you may have a problem with my little experiment...
I think it's funny / interesting  that some of us are convinvced that the common man has no chance of doing anything original or new in todays big corperate world... CAT could do the same thing I'm doing... let out a press release and their stock would increase by some ammount making them a lot of money... Ya' I know the story...

"what makes you think that you can do something a big corperation like CAT or GM hasn't thought of or tried.... If it was so good they would sell it and make millions"...

Here's a neat story to prove my point...

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C6787/

The thing is everyday there are still times when the little guy has the advantage over a well funded corperation and here's why..
If I worked at CAT I would need approval before I could go off and construct something to see if it worked... that could take a year or more in itself.. and by the time I got to where I am now CAT would have likely spent a few million $ and a few years on the project ... as far as the bank lending money.. at this stage I think they would be nuts to give me money... but if I could retrofit this to say work on a forklift...  generators... or on any diesel that would benefit by having dramticaly less exhaust emissions then I might have a chance... BTW there are thousands of well funded business that are atemting to bring products to market and most often fail miserably... Have you ever heard of Ballard?   
But keep in mind that companies like Ford, HP, The Wrights, Micrsoft, Apple all started from small...

OK  I do have a dream... I would like to make some improvements... possibly a conrtibution..  I realize a lot of folks have spent billions trying to think of every known possible way to improve the combustion engine.. but guess what... there are still simple easy to implement ideas that have yet to be thought of... I make injector line heater for the veggi oil folks... at first I took a lot of heat for this idea... they said they weren't needed... then I gave some away... for testing... and guess what?  they work and work well... If I'd have listened to some folks I would have just quit...   
 I'm an engine guy... not a MIT college grad kind of engine guy.... but more of a Smokey Yunick type with a twist... ... I'm an experimenter... I'm also a guy who has a lot of on hands experience with engines... I've made a lot of different types of engines... Stirling, IC Ericsson cycle, Piston Brayton, Combined cycle ... I've also had some unique experiences... as a kid (about 9 years old) I started collecting / fixing  the old hit and miss engines.. I like them because you can see what the parts are doing... had a steam tractor  when I was 16... I also used to own a marine construction company and have had a lot of diesel engines (80 or more) in tugs cranes... I'll bet I've owned most every make of diesel there is... CAT, Detroit, Deutz, Kamatsu, Lister, Petter, Perkins, MTU, Mercedes, EMD.. and some others too... and I've paid for more fuel in a year than most folks do in a lifetime... I have seen several fuel test engines.... some have adjustable compression.. A friend has a Ricardo like the on in the picture...

My lister is DI...  but I'll bet mine runs almost as clean as clean as your Commet does... and that's without the  EGR... so to sum things up...
I came hear to share something that I'm doing... something I thought folks would find interesting.. not an idea but real harware... because I thought other motorheads  might enjoy it and possibly try it themselves.. I don't follow sports.... my love is engines and you don't find a lot of folks at the corner bar who get off discussing these topics.. so the forum is a fun place for me... You have clearly formed an opinion on what / how you think what I'm doing  might be a waste of time... what the downsides are... (which it might be)...  I get the impression that you may be the forum critic.... (every forum has one or two) you say I'm wasting my time... I say so far it seems like a worthwhile thing to look into to... I'm not huting you or anyone with my experiments... so why not just let me keep going and we'll see if it really is all a waste of time... ...
 
       




   

Halfnuts

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2006, 04:09:47 PM »
It's at times like this that I really wish I had listened to what my mother told me when I was young.

Halfnuts

GuyFawkes

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2006, 07:56:07 PM »
Quote
Maybe that shit was possible 80 years ago, it isn't today.

Hi Guy,

This is an interesting comment... And I think it gives some insight as to how you think and  why you may have a problem with my little experiment...
I think it's funny / interesting  that some of us are convinvced that the common man has no chance of doing anything original or new in todays big corperate world... CAT could do the same thing I'm doing... let out a press release and their stock would increase by some ammount making them a lot of money... Ya' I know the story...

"what makes you think that you can do something a big corperation like CAT or GM hasn't thought of or tried.... If it was so good they would sell it and make millions"...

Here's a neat story to prove my point...

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C6787/

. I'm not huting you or anyone with my experiments... so why not just let me keep going and we'll see if it really is all a waste of time... ...
   


2nd bit 1st

no, you aren't hurting me, and I don't want you to stop, I want you to do MORE.

1st bit

hey, there is NOTHING innovative in that car, not a single thing.

You could have done it pre war with balsa wood and doped canvas.

It is a simple application of power versus weight. It is a simpletons task to do this, because a simpleton car like this will not pass a Euro Ncap crash test http://www.euroncap.com/content/test_procedures/introduction.php

There are a shit load of other things it won't even look at, much less pass.

Morgan started making cars in 1936, by the war they had that standing 60 and economy down pat, went round corners too.

You can buy a morgan too, about 40 thousand dollars, not the 80-100k the student car would cost

I'm not knocking it, I know they are kids, and that's why it falls down, they are kids, kids could design and build a bridge across the atlantic.

Does nobody remember the mercedes c111?

does a google



in the seventies merc built this DIESEL powered monster and knocked out records by the ton, in one continuous (except for changing drivers every few hours) 60 hour stint (no breakdowns) in the early seventies they broke 16 world records, and from memory got over 220 mph out of it

here's the bit almost nobody knows.

the powerplant came from a 300D saloon car...

so, you actually prove my argument, rather than disproving it. the man in the street can't beat the big company, especially when it comes to old and well understood technology like internal combustion or automotive engineering.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Halfnuts

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2006, 08:11:00 PM »
Aw heck, nobody took the bait.  You're supposed to ask, "So what did she tell you?"
An I reply, "I don't know 'cause I didn't LISTEN!"

It'd sure be nice to see some numbers on power and exhaust gas composition.  The rest of your comments are subjective and, may I say, rather hopeful, which leaves some of us cold.

I finally get what's going on.  Air consists of appx. 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen and about 0.2% carbon dioxide.  The bulk of the air charge inducted into the cylinder on each intake stroke is nitrogen which doesn't take part in the combustion equation to any great extent.  So it's really fuel, oxygen and carbon dioxide that are the players. 

By cooling and recirculating the exhaust gas, you're merely shifting the "spectator gas" from nitrogen to mostly carbon dioxide and water vapor which can be condensed if you REALLY cool the exhaust.  The problem I see is that in order to supply enough oxygen to run the engine, unless the oxygen you're supplying via the compressed air line is pure oxygen, 80% of what you're delivering will be nitrogen, and you're back where you started.  And if you are in any way limiting the amount of oxygen, your exhaust is going to become rich with carbon monoxide and soot, the result of incomplete combustion. 

A scheme like this may work at idle which is a fuel-limited state, but as more power is required of the engine, oxygen will become limiting, hence the need for a turbocharger and mebbe even nitrous oxide injection.  Hey, THERE'S a thought!

Halfnuts


fattywagonman

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Re: Semi Closed loop... Anyone tried it?
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2006, 09:04:13 PM »
Quote
so, you actually prove my argument, rather than disproving it. the man in the street can't beat the big company, especially when it comes to old and well understood technology like internal combustion or automotive engineering

So you think the big guys have the advantage... OK sometimes this is true... they have more people and $ but they have disadvantages too... I doubt that I'll change you opinion but I'd like to make some points...

I've noticed something on forums... The thinking is different on your side of the pond...
When I first proposed my Injector line heaters one of the biggest critics was a fellow from the UK... Told me they were a waste of time... snake oil... and that I shouldn't be allowed to sell them... something about MOT... I got pissed... WTF is MOT? and why would anyone care if I was selling injector line heaters?.... I offered him a heater for free if he would test it and post the results.. and he took me up on it... now He says he sees some improvements when the lines are heated... better faster starting... less smoke... I know they work because I did some tailpipe testing and HC's went from 26 PPM (without)  to 13 PPM (with) ...  

When I sold my construction company I started an SOFC company... A few years ago I offered it for sale... An outfit in Italy was interested and flew me over... It was a rather large company and so I asked them what they needed me / my company for? They replyed that for some reason folks on our side of the pond seem to be better at bringing new ideas to fruition... Something about optimism and seeking answers to what sometimes seem like imposible solutions...  

BTW I read your blog..  some folks over hear think different than you... I think when it comes to new stuff smaller is better.. most times a few or maybe even one smart guy can accomplish a lot more than an entire team of engineeres... and IMO  it's these individuals who make the difference... not big corperations like Benz...  sure it may be that Benz happens to employ one of these brite folks... and that's where they get new ideas.. But over here it's just as likely that the guy may be on his own...

On this side of the pond we still believe in the little guy... that some  guy in his garage  is likely to become the next Bill Gates.. all things are possible and results can be achieved by anyone who is smart enough and willing to invest the time.. ..  it's just a different style of thinking... and IMO a lot better world to live in that the one where the little guy never gets a chance..

BTW most combustion engine advancements came from racing... and an awful  lot of that racing was done by common tinkerers in thier garages.. Big companies came along and copied the ideas... IMO it's people not companies that can make the difference..