FR4 project

[listard-jp2]

^ Did you get these parts from the blokey I put you onto?

CMES would be as good as anyone to undertake this work for you, however what is the condition of your valve guide bores like, as excessive valve guide wear will have an effect on the accuracy of the placement of the valve seat register.

£70 for a single set of FR big end bearings is daylight robbery, PM me the details so I can be sure to avoid encountering these people.

I know some people have an adversion to Indian stuff, but seriously though I would consider using the Indian alternative (unless of course your going to using this engine in application where your life depended upon it), DEV should be able to assist you: http://www.devprecisionengineers.com/1200x800/home.htm

If you fancy a challenge and want to deal direct you could go directly to some of the suppliers I PM'd you with last time, and you will be OK.

[Reg Burn]

Hi Listard-jp23

Several questions to answer:

I got the head from a former Lister engineer from Dursley, Gloucestershire. The head was a bit of a gamble on my part, it is grey, a marine engine and probably sea-water-cooled. But it did have some good valves that I have already harvested.
I have also bought pistons, rings and a few other bits from this contact and they've all been very good.

The valve guide for the poor valve seat was clearly worn and has been removed.

I have no aversion to Indian stuff and will follow your leads, thanks.

PM on way.

Reg

[listard-jp2]

^ Items that have being used in a marine environment are always a bit risky in this regard, particuarly if they have come from from a raw water cooled application.

[Reg Burn]

Thinking ahead. (I hope this makes sense).

The engine was set up for use with a dry sump but to reduce oil capacity by half I want to initially run the engine without it.
 
The dry sump uses a slightly different oil pump. It has the regular oil pressure pump but in addition there is a larger capacity scavenge pump. I took the oil pump apart today to see if I could convert it into a regular oil pressure pump but it is not possible.

My oil pump has four connections.
1 (Scavenge pump in): The scavenge pump draws oil at a high rate from the regular sump
2 (Scavenge pump out): and pumps it to the auxiliary sump
3 (pressure pump in): This oil is drawn back by the oil pressure pump
4 (pressure pump out): and under pressure into the engine's oil channels.

If I bypass the auxiliary sump and connect the scavenge output to the pressure pump input this may work but oil pressure will be high. Could this cause problems? Or are there other solutions.

Reg

[listard-jp2]

^
What you are suggesting may be possible. The higher oil pressure issue could be overcome by adjusting the pressure relief valve accordingly.

The two major problem areas that I see for you are:

Complete revision of the return and delivery oil pipework will be required as most of it on the FR4 will be hard soldered copper pipe, and swapping from one pump to the other will put the pipe lengths out.

How to prevent oil build up in the non working part of the oil pump.


If you are set on not having a dry sump set up, the easiest solution (though possibly not the cheapest) will be to acquire more parts from your Dursley s/h parts supplier.

I personally like the idea of a dry sump arrangement as make oil changes easier, and as a temporary measure you could easily run the engine with a jury rig set up from a 25L oil drum.

[Reg Burn]

Hello again from the FR4 workshop.

It's been some time since my last post and lots has happened.The engine has been stripped down and every component cleaned. Some components have been replaced such as the crank, main/intermediate bearings, two pistons, three big end bearings and a couple of valves plus new seats.

When I bought the engine there was a plastic bag with unused Lister water-pump parts (carbon seal etc.) so I suspected the water pump would leak. I replaced these parts which is a pain in the a*se.

The engine is now rebuilt.

Today I filled the water system. The water pump still leaks badly through the larger dray hole at the gear end. Could the problem be a poor seating for one of the carbon seals and if left will it bed down or just get worse? Is it necessary to reface the seat?

Thanks, Reg.

[listard-jp2]

Hello again from the FR4 workshop.

It's been some time since my last post and lots has happened.

Glad to see your still making progress with this project.

 Could the problem be a poor seating for one of the carbon seals and if left will it bed down or just get worse? Is it necessary to reface the seat?

These water pumps are quite unique because they have two seals (one at each end of the water pump shaft).  Unless the surface on which the seal runs against was smooth and defect free, continuing to run it will just tear up the carbon seal even more so, your only realistic option is strip it down again, and refacing the sealing surface flat and smooth by machining it in a Lathe, but be careful to only remove the minimum amount of material to clean up the sealing surface, as you will be reducing the seal spring pressure the more you machine off.

If you have no access to machining facilities you might like to try this:  Some years ago a successful bodge I used on a badly pitted and worn sealing surface of a David Brown 30D tractor water pump was to Araldite a conveniently sized stainless steel washer on top of the worn cast iron sealing surface. I was careful to ensure the sealing surface of the stainless washer and wearing surface of the  seal was smooth and flat by rubbing it down with a sheet of very fine emery resting on a pane of glass. It never leaked again in all the time I owned the tractor  

[Reg Burn]

Hi, pulled the water pump apart this morning revealing the carbon seal assembly.
It must have broken during the rebuild. This has happened before. I can't find a good way to keep the seal in position as the pump ends are pressed together. The lugs of the seal catch on the retaining lugs and the thing just snaps. Any ideas for putting this blasted thing together?

As for the seat it looks ok, clearly the snapped seal was causing the leak.

Reg

[listard-jp2]

They certainly tricky little suckers to put back together without breaking bits, as you have discovered by now.

I have done a couple of these and I know exactly what your going through, the only advice I can give is to assemble everything in the vertical plane, using a press. Also you can hold the carbon ring onto its sealing surface with a dab of grease, and being sure not to rotate the shaft when you assemble the pump.

[listard-jp2]

Just in case anyone was inspired by this thread, and wants to emulate the OP, another FR4 engine has appeared on ebay Uk. This one looks to be in much better condition:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110899314136?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Happy bidding

[millman56]

  Unbelievably  this same engine  can be seen running on youtube under the heading LISTER FR4 GEN SET.

[listard-jp2]

 Unbelievably  this same engine  can be seen running on youtube under the heading LISTER FR4 GEN SET.

That being the case, the ultimate owner of this item would be same seller who sold the
lister CS engine that was modified to a stick chopper, that was discussed in this thread: http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6113.msg70740#msg70740

I seem to remember that he was running this FR4 engine on WMO / used hydraulic oil at the time, which would also go some way to explaining the long duration of black smoking upon initial start up from cold on the Youtube video, I wonder what he did with the rest of the generator. It would now appear that the history of this engine differs somewhat from the description given in the ebay listing  .

Now by pure coincidence, it seems that a marinised FR6 version has also just appeared on ebay UK. Seems to be complete apart from the air filter.

See item listing: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lister-Marine-engine-and-gearbox-/190692854603?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_Boat_Engines_EngineParts_SM&hash=item2c662e0b4b

This may be of interest to you Millman56 (for you to gauge the market demand for these engines) if you still have your two FR6 engines.

"edited to correct spelling"

[millman56]

Correct.

The FR6 that I ran for approx 400 hours was a pain to start, I found that moving the stop lever a little way towards the stop position when starting it helped tremendously, it`s my belief that over delivery of fuel when starting these engines from cold when using alternative fuels does not help.
You may draw your own conclusions as to the reasons for the discrepancy between reality and Ebay words.

Yes I spotted that and I think it may well reinforce my belief that the market demand is zilch, nigh on a ton of engine for 40 hp !!!   one of my FR6s is a marine version with the dry sump system.

Mark.

[listard-jp2]

You may draw your own conclusions as to the reasons for the discrepancy between reality and Ebay words.

With that in might this may be a listing to pass by on this occasion, because although the engine looks complete, it will have had a hard life as a result of running on WMO. Or perhaps it would be ideal for spares if someone needs a block for a marinised version that has internal water jacket corrosion (due to raw sea water cooling).

Yes I spotted that and I think it may well reinforce my belief that the market demand is zilch, nigh on a ton of engine for 40 hp !!!   one of my FR6s is a marine version with the dry sump system.

Totally agree with you, as there is also another UK ebay seller who at present is breaking some FR engines, and is offering parts from what seems to be FR6 and FR4 marinised engines, and a careful study of completed ebay listings, together with his seller history reveals that he has not sold much. Although the OP of this thread did buy a FR4 crank and numerous other bits from him.

The demand for Lister FR engines in general seems very limited, which again is reflected in the price these items realise on ebay at present, just recently a complete FR1 startomatic set in Devon sold for £375 (if that was a 4.5kW CS startomatic it would have easily being twice the price) the engine was running, but the electrical side of the set was an unknown.

[Reg Burn]

Hello chaps, I haven't posted here for some time because the FR4 project stalled.

I've been working on other projects such as connecting a Lister generator to my CS6 and rebuilding a Lister FR2 from parts sourced from several origins. But recently I've returned to the FR4 project and despite a few more obstacles it is complete. I have filled the radiator and there are no leaks. The dry sump is set up and slow hand cranking gets the oil to about 22 psi. The fuel pumps are delivering filtered diesel to the injectors evidenced by a satisfying creak, and the injector timing has been set approximately. But I have not been able to get it to fire at all.
When the decompression lever dis-engaged (so all valves close as normal) I can turn the engine over with effort and using a lot of my body weight on the crank handle and with the crank case inspection door open I can hear the hiss/oily gurgle of compressed air escaping down the side of one or more pistons.
The rings are good so too are the pistons so the problem may be the liners.
When I got the engine from the corner of a farmer's field the cylinders were flooded with rain water. The liners were a little rusty and the pistons needed to be bashed out. The rust left some minor pitting in two cylinders. I didn't replace them because of the cost of replacements and my lack of experience in this procedure.
I know members of this forum cannot establish the extent the air is leaking and therefore it will be difficult to offer me advice but how much does a small compression failure affect the starting or running of a diesel engine? Would a little gloopy oil in the intake help?
Any advice please.....Reg