FR4 project

[Reg Burn]

millman56, does your suggestion involve removal of the piston downwards and into the crank case? The crank is still in place so I'm afraid there is not enough clearance between the bottom of the piston liner and the crank for this to be possible.
Since my last post I have removed the clutch revealing a green perfect flywheel with the original gold arrow transfer clear and clean. I removed the sump and the water pump which turns smoothly. And I've removed one piston (tapped with wood from below). I need advice on condition of piston. It may be usable, rings too. At least one big end journal will need cleaning up. Can any one recommend a machine shop in/near Berkshire (UK)?
Reg

[millman56]

Reg,

No,     It should enable you to free off the engine, and with some patience get it to run, running and warming up the engine usually frees off stuck piston rings, seats leaky valves and saves a lot of work/expense,  you can then remedy any faults apparent.              My methodology is that an engine that has been laid up without protection as opposed to one that has suffered catastrophic failure can normally be made to run, if it aint broke don`t fix it in fact.   
When you say "cleaning up" do you mean that the journal is badly scored/lightly scored/slightly rusty ? You may be getting into very expensive territory here as parts are rare and expensive, I will have a look at my FR book at work tomorrow and see what the ring gap and piston clearance should be.

Mark.

[listard-jp2]

It should enable you to free off the engine, and with some patience get it to run, running and warming up the engine usually frees off stuck piston rings, seats leaky valves and saves a lot of work/expense,  you can then remedy any faults apparent. My methodology is that an engine that has been laid up without protection as opposed to one that has suffered catastrophic failure can normally be made to run, if it aint broke don`t fix it in fact.   

Well that's certainly one way of getting an engine running, but one I wouldn't be inclined to use that approach myself in this situation, because if an engine has had water ingress (for any length of time) then its very possible that corrosion may be present on rotating bearing surfaces, as indeed is the case with this engine as the OP has already stated when he removed the first piston/con rod assy (hence attempting to run an engine in this condition may well tear up the main and big end bearing surfaces that the journals run against), and for the same reason fuel injection pumps should not be attempted to be made to operate if there seized.

I do agree with you that this will quickly get expensive, due to the rarity of new parts (particularly undersize bearings) as this engine range was only in production for circa 10 years, and Lister's never made the amount of spares they did for the CS range by comparison. A middle of the road solution would be to consider Indian sourced parts

IMHO the only way to go for the OP is to carry out a full stripdown, and assessment of the internal condition of the engine before proceeding any further.

[Reg Burn]

A full strip down is my intention. Then a thorough evaluation and costing followed by one of three paths.
1: rebuild
2: sell the parts
3: call the scrap men

The pistons are all out and in all in reasonable condition except for the oil control rings.
The crank is still in position but one of the big end journals is in poor condition - rutted and a little rusty and will need grinding The bearing is also poor with lots of brass (?) showing. It all turns over smoothly. (Are over-sized shell bearings difficult to find?)
The cylinder liners have minor surface corrosion and I will try hand-honing to see if they will be ok to avoid having to buy liners.
The fuel pumps are seized and they are currently soaking in diesel. The plungers are free on two of them.
The oil pump and the water pump is off and both are free

I need to get the flywheel off but don't have a spanner large enough. The nut is nearly three inches AF. I don't know the recommended method of 'locking' the flywheel while the nut is undone. I don't have a flywheel puller and I don't know what the torque needs to be when it is returned.

So while I think about the flywheel removal I will dismantle the heads.

Cheers, Reg

[listard-jp2]

That sounds like a logical course of action to take, furthermore here is a link to another person who sounds like he is breaking a couple of Lister FR4 engines.

http://www.marinepowerservices.co.uk/forum/view-postlist/forum-10-engines-gearboxes-parts-for-sale-/topic-9-lister-fr4-marine-engine-and-blackstone-gearbox-parts

It may be a lot cheaper for you to source a good s/h FR4 crank that's still on STD size journals, rather than have your crank ground, and then struggle to find the corresponding bearings, as STD size bearings are reasonably easy to find when compared to undersize parts.

FYI: The FR cranks have induction hardened journals so they are more likely to be in good condition even on a high hours engine, provided its had regular oil changes.

If you do decide to have the crank ground, then these people will not be that far from you:

http://www.classic-and-modern-engine-services.co.uk/

I have used them for many years with no problems to date.

[millman56]

 Reg,           You have to use common sense when dealing with siezed engines,  it would not be wise to attempt to run an engine that had been found in the bottom of a pond, however  ones that had one or all of the following problems have been freed off by myself and successfully put to work,  seized pistons, valves,  injectors, delivery valves, governors and  pumping elements both rotary and inline.   Although I have never dealt with one that has a siezed crank, any with crank problems have always had too little tightness or a detached conrod, there have been many with water in the sump, but all have still had oil in, the water displaces the oil and in certain situations allows the oil to cover the big end and main  bearings and in fact help preserve them. It sounds as though your engine has existing wear issues on one journal which would probably not have deteriorated any during a short run.    The piston to bore clearance for your FR  is up to 0.012" and the ring gap is up to 0.035" new is 0.005" and 0.009" respectively.

Mark.

[Reg Burn]

Thanks millman,

There was NO WAY this engine could start up to free off the internal workings. It was stuck solid.

I will not try to run this engine before I have checked all components are operational. I would not run it if the oil pressure is inadequate. I would not run the engine if it would not cool sufficiently. I will not run it in its current state with a worn big end shell bearing and journal because further damage could be caused particularly to the valves. Indeed, the engine will not run if the pumps and injectors don't deliver fuel.

So I need the flywheel off (I the nut anti-clockwise? What's the torque?) then the crank which will either be reground or a s/h replacement purchased.

Reg

[dieselgman]

I looked into the readily available Lister documents that we have here including workshop manual for the Lister FR and do not find reference to that flywheel torque & thread rotation. I know that the other Lister models use Right Hand threading regardless of crankshaft rotation so that might be a good place to start. The nice thing about large fasteners of that type is that you can fairly easily build a tool to fit. We prefer the "boiler wrench" approach and use a sledge hammer if we either don't have a proper socket for the impact wrench handy or don't have air pressure on location.

An aside here... we work on a lot of oilfield HR engines that often get serviced in the field. We have seen their 400 ft.lb. flywheel bolts removed with a chisel and sledge hammer before. Not recommended, but it can be done if you are willing to sacrifice the fastener.

dieselgman

(BTW - a boiler wrench is an end wrench with large boss on one end designed to be struck with sledge hammer for loosening and tightening very difficult large fasteners.)

[listard-jp2]

The flywheel nut will be a right hand thread, unfortunately the FR literature that I have to hand does not give a torque figure.

An aside here... we work on a lot of oilfield HR engines that often get serviced in the field. We have seen their 400 ft.lb. flywheel bolts removed with a chisel and sledge hammer before. Not recommended, but it can be done if you are willing to sacrifice the fastener.

I have see this quite often myself on numerous engines I have encountered, in so far as this approach has been used to both remove and refit the flywheel nut

(BTW - a boiler wrench is an end wrench with large boss on one end designed to be struck with sledge hammer for loosening and tightening very difficult large fasteners.)

Also known as a slogging spanner in the UK

[Reg Burn]

Thanks guys.

You should have been watching my acrobatics today. I attached a 70mm box spanner to an eight foot leverage bar and stood on the end, making sure the engine didn't tip over and  wondering why that bloody nut wouldn't budge. The torque is way over 300lbs, maybe as much as 400lbs.

I have seen a slogging wrench (not the correct size though) in a local hard ware store and wondered what use it would have - now I know and have ordered one on eb*y. It's a cranked slogging wrench and I hope the 'crank' is sufficient so it fits inside the flywheel's recess.

Thinking ahead though I intend to use the clutch-to-flywheel bracket (not the technical name) as a flywheel puller. I think the bracket is cast iron and have a concern that it may fracture. An alternative idea is to hit the flywheel through the aperture for a starter, gently of course, to free the flywheel from its taper.

What do you reckon?

Reg

[dieselgman]

Do not hit the flywheel... it is of relatively soft cast iron. Once you have the flywheel bolt out, make yourself a jack-plate puller out of some heavy plate steel about 19mm thick or better. Drill that out and attach to the flywheel with equally spaced bolts. Drill out the center and weld a nut in place to accept a center bolt of at least 25mm and of high grade hardness. Use coarse threads only, the fine thread type will fail pretty quickly. Use that center bolt to push against the crankshaft with appropriate spacer. Once you have that cranked down very hard... then vibrate the crankshaft by using a sledge hammer on your puller center bolt. sometimes this takes a few repetitions of cranking up the pressure and vibrating the crank but they always let go eventually. We have pulled a lot of Lister flywheels this way and we also own the factory tooling... the jack-plate works best!

By the way, 400 ft. lbs. is about right for those large bolts. We often use a 3/4" impact adjusted to about 500 ft. lbs. to remove them.

dieselgman

[listard-jp2]

Once you have the flywheel bolt out

Better still once you have loosened off the flywheel nut, unscrew it no more than a couple of turns before attempting removal of the flywheel. This is most important because it will prevent the flywheel from damaging: you, the crankshaft, the flywheel, or your extractor equipment. Because when you break the taper between the flywheel and the crankshaft nose the sudden release of tension in the extraction equipment will be imparted to the flywheel.

[Reg Burn]

Hi all.

Lots has happened since my last post. The FR4 engine is dismantled and I have started to clean/examine parts prior to reassembly.
Two cylinders are good, the other two are not as smooth but probably still worth a try. Pistons/rings ok.
Crank shaft was poor on all bearings so acquired a replacement with perfect big end pins but not so perfect mains.
STILL SEARCHING FOR BIG END SHELLS.
Cam shaft good, broken tappets have been replaced as too have bent push rods.
Fuel pumps un-seized, dismantled, cleaned and awaiting re-assembly prior to testing.
Heads are causing a few problems.
Broken rocker has been replaced. Injector parts ordered (thanks listard-jp2). Nearly have a full set of good condition valves. One valve seat is in poor shape and needs re-cutting but this will recess valve head too deep. Not sure if metal can be built up by welding then re-cut but this sounds expensive!
Trying to dismantle the C/O valve. Lever, bracket, springs off, the valve moves freely and does't feel like it needs regrinding. I don't know how to remove the auxiliary plug. It is stuck fast. Does any one know?

Reg

[listard-jp2]

Injector parts ordered (thanks listard-jp2).

My pleasure 

Heads are causing a few problems.  One valve seat is in poor shape and needs re-cutting but this will recess valve head too deep. Not sure if metal can be built up by welding then re-cut but this sounds expensive!

The only solution in this case is to have a valve seat insert fitted, however as your on a budget. I would suggest you investigate buying a s/h cylinder head from the same source that you acquired the crank from, as it may be a considerably cheaper option ;-)

Trying to dismantle the C/O valve. Lever, bracket, springs off, the valve moves freely and doesn't feel like it needs regrinding. I don't know how to remove the auxiliary plug. It is stuck fast. Does any one know?

To get that auxiliary plug out of the head you will need a rather special Lister tool (made just for this job), however if its seems OK I would be minded to leave it alone, and see how it goes.

If you get desperate for big end shells I may have a source but he only had 0.010" u/s when I last enquired, when I needed  some big end shells for one of my own engines.

I look forward to the next progress report 

[Reg Burn]

I bought a second-hand head from the same guy. The seats were perfect and the valves good too.

But the auxiliary plugs had already been removed and during the initial cleaning I removed a kilo of rust flakes from the water channels inside the head and some water-jacket areas now feel quite thin.

So I am going to use the original head and get a new seat cut or inserted. I guess CMES in Bracknell will be able to do this work.

I am checking out a couple of avenues where I may get some big-end shells. But so far I've been offered 20 thou u/s for £70 each so I'll continue to search for the correct size. Could I use the shells from the original crank set for a short time. One set is ok, two sets have a thin (about 1mm wide) rut running through the centre of the surface with copper showing through, and the last set is completely worn to the copper. But they all feel smooth just every worn.

Reg