FR4 project

[Reg Burn]

Hi.

I have adopted an FR4, radiator cooled, supplied with a dry sump set-up and a clutch. It was used to power a grain drier at a Surrey farm.

It's sitting in my workshop at home and it is seized solid.

I have drained all oil, water and stale diesel. I have removed the dry sump, clutch, radiator, cylinder heads, fuel pumps and have poured diesel on top of the seized pistons. I have read about various other liquids being used to release rusty pistons including coke (the soft drink) vinegar and hot or cold water. I may have to remove the flywheel, sump and crank and attack the problem from underneath by brute force if necessary including a sledgehammer and a block of timber.

Once out I guess there could be considerable damage to the pistons and the liners. I have been advised that honing (to remove the rust) is never a viable option but would value a second opinion.

My aim here is to save a this piece of English heritage from the scrapyard. I have taken on a huge responsibility and so long as cost don't soar I want to get it running again. Any helpful advice would be great.

I will keep you up to date with my progress.

Thanks
Reg Burn

[dieselgman]

I presume the FR4 does NOT have liners installed? I can offer the following; heat and vibration are helpful, as well as a good solvent. That solvent can be water but we generally are not that patient and tend to use kerosene to soak rusted pistons/cylinders. We are most often dealing with air-cooled cylinders and can apply heat directly, If you can gain any access into your water jacket, you might be able to apply heat to the back side of the cylinder/s and get things to move. I believe that patience and persistence is what is called for. Brute force is more likely than not to cause further damages.

dieselgman

[listard-jp2]

You are to be commended for taking on a challenge such as this, I saw the same engine on ebay, and I think it sold for £170.

As these engines use hard chrome liners, any rust on the bores is very likely to have pitted the chrome and hence making the liner scrap.

Therefore I suggest you contact this UK ebay seller http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lister-FR-connecting-rod-/120787741533?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item1c1f82ab5d

As he has being breaking a FR4 engine for some time, and may have some good useable parts suitable for your FR4.

[listard-jp2]

I presume the FR4 does NOT have liners installed?

With the exception of the Lister CS [and VA derivitave} all of the compression change over Lister engines have wet liners, and they are also all chrome plated

If you can gain any access into your water jacket, you might be able to apply heat to the back side of the cylinder/s and get things to move.

Due to the more compact nature of the FR (when compared to the CS) it has no access into the water jacket area of the cylinder block.


As the OP correctly identified, if the piston and rod cannot be removed from above. The best course of action is to access the liner from below, and using a suitably shaped length of hardwood drift out the whole piston and liner assy. Then using a press or similar, press out the piston from the liner.

Further to my previous post if your unable to find any good s/h liners, I now notice the Indians are manufacturing oversize FR pistons (this of course means you will no longer have a chrome plated bore). If I can find the link I will post it up for you.

[dieselgman]

Thanks for that! We are all learning quite a bit here!

It does make perfect sense to drive out the piston/liner as an assembly in the case of major seizure. I hope there is sufficient clearance for the rod big-end to clear the crankshaft!

dieselgman

[Reg Burn]

Hi all,

This engine does indeed have liners and driving the unit out complete may become the only option.
But is it possible? The engine has seized with the pistons all at the same level, in the middle of their stroke (1 and 4 going up, 2 and 3 going down) which means the con-rods are at their widest position at the big ends which means, I guess, the bearings will prevent the crank from coming off.
I may have no choice but to soak it for a long time in acid if necessary!
 
Next jobs: Remove sump and big end bearing cups, and I suppose the flywheel may need to come off too. I will take a look at this over the next week. I also want to remove the water pump but even with all the bolts off it wont budge. I thought the pinion gear would come out with the unit complete but maybe because of the seizure the gear will need to be removed first.

This is one heck of a challenge and I would really like to see it running and I hope it is not beyond repair. But at least I'll have a stash of spares when the next one comes along. 

(Meanwhile my CS6-1941 is doing fine but I can only run it for a minute a day because I have no cooling tank yet).

Reg

[dieselgman]

1 minute a day? Better pipe some water to that thing! 

dieselgman

[listard-jp2]

The engine has seized with the pistons all at the same level, in the middle of their stroke (1 and 4 going up, 2 and 3 going down) which means the con-rods are at their widest position at the big ends which means, I guess, the bearings will prevent the crank from coming off.

It should still be possible to remove the crank (though on a FR4 its going to be a sizable item), and once removed you will be able to see enough of the bottom of the liner to be able to hit it with a suitable baulk of timber.

I may have no choice but to soak it for a long time in acid if necessary!

That might not be such a smart move, as acid is likely to attack the Aluminium piston in preference to the rust.
 

I also want to remove the water pump but even with all the bolts off it wont budge. I thought the pinion gear would come out with the unit complete but maybe because of the seizure the gear will need to be removed first.

If it is like the smaller FR engines, then the water pump will also have a bolted flange onto the side of the cylinder block, which also must be undone prior to attempting to remove the water pump.
[/quote]

One final question: In the ebay photos, the engine looked like it had a downswept exhaust, so how did the corrosion in the bores get as bad as they are?

[Reg Burn]

Hi listard-jp2
Some people buy flat screen TVs, some buy play-stations iPads and kindles. I buy old engines and try to fix them, sometimes with good results sometimes not. So YES you are correct, the engine is the one you saw sell for £170 on ebay.

As for your question regarding the exhaust/water I think the water got in through the valves, probably the air intake valve. I'll give you the facts and see if you come to a similar conclusion.
When I opened-up the sump tap a dribble of water came out, then more and more until it almost filled a 4 gallon bucket. Then the oil started to flow.
There was NO oil in the dry sump tank just goo at the bottom.
There was bright yellow anti-freeze in the radiator and it did not appear to leak into the engine.
The cylinder head gaskets appear in good condition.
The rocker cover lids were not properly fitted and the air filter/silencer is rotten.

Thanks for the advise on removing the water pump. Removal of this and the oil pump will reduce friction and therefore help with my piston battle ahead.

By acid I was meaning vinegar or similar.

Reg

[Reg Burn]

Hi dieselgman

Every time I pick up the starting handle for the CS it gasps: "water, feed me water".

Odd don't you think.

Reg

[dieselgman]

That's right, we are so used to the air-cooled stuff anymore, we almost forget about that water-cooling fluid they are gasping for!

I think you are lucky to have that FR crankshaft in that particular position, indeed you should be able to drop the crank and free up all 4 rods at the same time. We are not familiar with the clearances involved in that particular case though. Any counterbalance weights to deal with?

dieselgman

[Reg Burn]

No counterbalance because the other piston(s) do that job.

Reg

[listard-jp2]

When I opened-up the sump tap a dribble of water came out, then more and more until it almost filled a 4 gallon bucket.
The rocker cover lids were not properly fitted and the air filter/silencer is rotten.

By acid I was meaning vinegar or similar.

Reg

That is ALOT of water to get into an engine. What is the state of the crankshaft journals like, as they are likely to be affected as well (in my experience). Are all four cylinders equally rusted up, as I would expect the cylinder nearest the air filter to be the worst affected. If water had entered the engine through the air filter.
It is very common to find the air filter / silencer assy rotted out, and for this very reason this part is extremely difficult to find s/h in good condition.


Let me know how you progress with this project as I have some contacts for both OEM and pattern part (Indian) suppliers, because I myself am involved with several FR engines.

[Reg Burn]

I would agree but no. 4 piston is actually  the cleanest. There is no sign of corrosion in the crank case because the oil sitting on top of the water sealed the air. I hope to view the crankshaft journals within a week and I'll keep ypu informed. Reg

[millman56]

Hi Reg,

If the big ends and mains are not damaged one way of unseizing is to remove the heads then after cleaning and copiously lubricating the bores, aquire a piece of 1 1/2" X 1" steel bar long enough to span two of the head studs and bridge one of the the bores , drill holes through the 1 1/2" thickness at the stud centres and diameters, place packers on the piston then tighten the steel bar bridge down on to the packers using the head nuts, this may have to be repeated several times increasing the packer thickness each time.            Once you have movement it`s usually plain sailing.           Make sure the water pump is not siezed before you do this though.    This method has worked for me but not on an FR engine.

Mark.