Author Topic: pre start oil priming ?  (Read 16838 times)

cylinderheadnut

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pre start oil priming ?
« on: September 17, 2011, 09:07:28 PM »
Thoughts on this idea,

 install a seperate oil priming pump, either manual or electric ,in parallel with the crankcase pump, to pre load the bearings with oil before starting, if you go starting battery powered then it would be similar to a heat position on the start key switch. The boffins tell us that alot of the wear takes place in the cold start before the oil pressure builds up, this would eliminate that .

You could possibly fill an accumulator vessel of oil during the previous run, and open the valve just before starting next time.

dieselgman

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2011, 12:56:54 AM »
A simple hand primer on the oil pump will at least take care of the main bearings in this regard... Oh yes! That is standard equipment on many of these engines.  ;) An additional little squirt on both ends of the camshaft and valve train - good to go!  

Building oil pressure in this older style engine (CS) is not quite the same as in modern engines with pressurized oil systems but having everything pre-lubed is certainly a worthy objective and your engine will live much longer if you can achieve it. On the newer Listers a decompression on all cylinders is expected standard starting procedure until you reach cranking speed and oil pressure has built up. We do not see too many bearing failures in the heavy duty Listers.

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dieselgman

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2011, 01:02:39 AM »
Length of idle time is also a factor to consider... A good standy system is expected to be warmed up and run at least once a month, this will tend to keep lubricating oil up in the parts where it is needed. If your equipment is new or has sat for an extended period of time, then extra attention to the pre-lube is more important. A customer recently had quite a squeal going in a new engine - apparently a "dry" condition in the cam bushings. That went away after a little lubrication squirt in the right places.

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Startomatic

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 02:21:12 AM »
the starting procedures of the older Cat D7F dozer that i had work on is to crank up the engine until the lub pressure built up before opening up the throttle. i like the heavy duty 24V battery and starter design and it actually does the cranking without a decompressor to built up the lub pressure.
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ronmar

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 03:31:03 PM »
The accumulator would be a simple idea, if the CS ran more than a few pounds of oil pressure.  It just dosn't have very much oil pressure in normal operation so an accumulator would probably not work very well unless additional air pressure was added tothe top before firing it.  A larger volume hand pump might be a better way to pre-lube, but without a few additional spray points to insure rod and cam ends are hit, I do not know how effective it would be.

On the CS, one of the most important places to pre-lube, is also one of the most difficult to reach, the big end rod bearing.  Unless the crank is in the correct orientation, the spray pipes in the CS oil system, at least the ones on mine, will not reach the big end when hand pumping.  The original design CS hand pump lever being a little weak/ineffective, I doubt it will spray far enough to reach the rod big end even if the crank was positioned properly.  The only way to properly pre-lube the big end is to pull the cover plate and use an oil can with a long tube to squirt oil up to the big end oil holes.  The cam bushings, at least the far end is fairly easy to reach by removing the nut located directly above it.  There is no easy way to reach the gear/IP end of the cam to pre-lube that bushing, at least mine dosn't have any access/lube point on that end.

Running, the CS pump/oil system is adequate to enhance the splash lube, but there is really no easy way to determine if it is operating when running.  Since the oil system MUST operate to maintain the level of the upper sump which feeds the dipper and splash lube, I think this is one of the most important places to keep an eye on.  I had thought about running a capillary line off of the end of the oil pipe, up to the rockers.  This line dripping into the rockers would give you a fairly easy visual cue to determine if oil was being pumped thru the system. It would also provide dedicated lube to the rockers and cam. To maintain the proper ammount of oil at the valve cups, I could then install 2 more capillary tubes that draw from the valve spring wells and siphon oil down to the ends of the camshaft.  Biggest drawback would be opening the oil system up to the atmosphere/exposing to airborne dust, without a more effective valve cover.

     
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ronmar

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2011, 01:13:06 AM »
Thinking more about this since I posted a few days back, I think I have stumbled on a real simple pre-lube method, at least for a CS...  I was experimenting with babbington burners this last spring planning a heat source for my shop, and perhaps to supplement my house heat using waste oil.  I was amazed at how well air sprayed and atomized waste lube oil. 

So how about an air pipe installed in the main lower oil sump pointed upward, with the opening just below the normal oil level.  Apply compressed air to this pipe from a bicycle pump or compressed air tank and you have a rather explosive spray/splash of oil up into the crankcase.  This would coat the cam and tappets, crank bearings, idler gear and spindle, rod big end, cylinder if the piston was up and if setup right perhaps even up into the piston to drip into the wrist pin bearing lube holes(a real difficult place to pre-lube)...  If pointed correctly, it would probably even bounce up and into the governor and IP tappet end of the cam.  This oil would drain down and insure the upper sump was topped off for the dipper to go to work when the crank starts rotating...  The engine would be internally splash lubed, just like it was immediatley after the last time it was shutdown...

Dam, now I am going to have to go make a mess experimenting...
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carlb23

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2011, 01:20:27 PM »
Thinking more about this since I posted a few days back, I think I have stumbled on a real simple pre-lube method, at least for a CS...  I was experimenting with babbington burners this last spring planning a heat source for my shop, and perhaps to supplement my house heat using waste oil.  I was amazed at how well air sprayed and atomized waste lube oil.  

So how about an air pipe installed in the main lower oil sump pointed upward, with the opening just below the normal oil level.  Apply compressed air to this pipe from a bicycle pump or compressed air tank and you have a rather explosive spray/splash of oil up into the crankcase.  This would coat the cam and tappets, crank bearings, idler gear and spindle, rod big end, cylinder if the piston was up and if setup right perhaps even up into the piston to drip into the wrist pin bearing lube holes(a real difficult place to pre-lube)...  If pointed correctly, it would probably even bounce up and into the governor and IP tappet end of the cam.  This oil would drain down and insure the upper sump was topped off for the dipper to go to work when the crank starts rotating...  The engine would be internally splash lubed, just like it was immediatley after the last time it was shutdown...

Dam, now I am going to have to go make a mess experimenting...


Great idea,

Since i use an air starter to start my engine i can divert some of the high pressure air going to the air starter to mist the oil in the crank case as i engage the air starter.  It takes the air starter a second or two to engage the flywheel and start it turning,  by that time i am sure i can mist a bunch of oil throughout the crankcase.  A babington nozzle mounted just under the oil level is a great idea,  I just happen to have 4 or 5 extra babington nozzles laying around.  

ronmar

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 03:15:45 PM »
I think it will be VERY effective...  I did a little experiment with a 5 gallon bucket turned on it's side and about a cup of oil poured down into the bottom.  I have a long thin right angle blowpipe I use to blow the debris out of my tractor radiator from the back.  I put that in along the bottom and the ammount of oil added covered the blowhole by about 1/4".   A quick shot of air quickly lowered the oil level to the point oil was no longer being lifted by the airflow.  Of course all the oil that was above the blowhole was lifted and deposited on the inside of the bucket, and all over the plastic bag i covered the opening of the bucket with...  Now on to a real test in the crankcase I suppose.  I still have my clear plexiglass window I shot video thru, so I can watch how it works inside the case, hopefully without making too much of a mess.

I don't recall having ever heard of someone pre-lubing like this.  I may just have to attach my name to this one:)
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mike90045

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 05:19:34 PM »
Thinking more about this since I posted a few days back, I think I have stumbled on a real simple pre-lube method, at least for a CS...  I was experimenting with babbington burners this last spring planning a heat source for my shop, and perhaps to supplement my house heat using waste oil.  I was amazed at how well air sprayed and atomized waste lube oil.  

So how about an air pipe installed in the main lower oil sump pointed upward, with the opening just below the normal oil level.  Apply compressed air to this pipe from a bicycle pump or compressed air tank and you have a rather explosive spray/splash of oil up into the crankcase.  This would coat the cam and tappets, crank bearings, idler gear and spindle, rod big end, cylinder if the piston was up and if setup right perhaps even up into the piston to drip into the wrist pin bearing lube holes(a real difficult place to pre-lube)...  If pointed correctly, it would probably even bounce up and into the governor and IP tappet end of the cam.  This oil would drain down and insure the upper sump was topped off for the dipper to go to work when the crank starts rotating...  The engine would be internally splash lubed, just like it was immediatley after the last time it was shutdown...

Dam, now I am going to have to go make a mess experimenting...


Great idea,

Since i use an air starter to start my engine i can divert some of the high pressure air going to the air starter to mist the oil in the crank case as i engage the air starter.  It takes the air starter a second or two to engage the flywheel and start it turning,  by that time i am sure i can mist a bunch of oil throughout the crankcase.  A babington nozzle mounted just under the oil level is a great idea,  I just happen to have 4 or 5 extra babington nozzles laying around.  



Venting all that HP air out of the crankcase may be a problem, or it may just exercise the reed flapper ??

dieselgman

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 06:17:41 PM »
Venting all that HP air out of the crankcase may be a problem, or it may just exercise the reed flapper ??

That is what I was thinking, you would have to control that air volume and pressure to keep from blowing the oil out of the engine and making a mess! A proper high-volume vent with oil drain-back may have to be a part of the setup.

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carlb23

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 06:23:55 PM »
Using a babington ball as an atomizer should not put much air in the crankcase as the hole in the ball is only .010" I am sure that little bit of air will vent by the reed valve quite easily.   

Tom

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 06:31:09 PM »
Or just blow a bunch of oil mist out the flapper.
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ronmar

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2011, 12:38:30 AM »
Actually from last nights test, I don't think I will use a tiny babbington jet.  I think I will use a 1/16" or larger opening, perhaps 2, one on each side of the crankcase.  This will move a LOT of oil with just a short burst or two of air.  I don't think I want to atomize the oil too much.  The air should pass right out the case vent.  If the oil is too atomized, some would go with the air. With larger droplets I don't think much will make it out thru the vent.  The goal is to coat the parts and larger droplets splattered around the case will do that just fine.  visualize an oil bomb going off inside the case, that was what the test looked like:)
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fabricator

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2011, 12:51:32 AM »
I like that idea a LOT, We shall dub it the Ronmar air blast pre luibe upshot system (RABPLUS) Pat Pending.
A simple little bulkhead fitting a bent tube with a couple holes and a fitting with a small ball valve, KISS.
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dieselgman

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Re: pre start oil priming ?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2011, 01:11:11 AM »
I was rather fond of the "oil bomb" concept description myself. The Ronmar Oil Bomb? Try getting a truckload of those through US Customs!   :laugh:  :laugh:

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