Author Topic: LUBRICATION RELATED  (Read 40233 times)

SHIPCHIEF

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LUBRICATION RELATED
« on: December 16, 2005, 07:14:55 AM »
I'm thinking we should discuss lubrication, filtering, magnets, bearing wear, oil pump problems, different engine lube configurations etc. in a new forum.
I have an ASHWAMEGH 25/2 with a plunger pump driven off the center of the camshaft. I noticed that ROCKETBOY had a failure of the plunger return spring during the initial 250 hour hurricane emergency run in. A non India spring may be in order...?

I have several magnets in the sump, like everyone else, but I think a spin on oil filter on the oil pump discharge would be a good idea. I think the oil pump discharge check valve on the pump top could be blocked or restrained with a stiffer spring, and the plunger return spring cover nut could be bored for pipe thread. This would be the new oil discharge point. Hose this to a remote oil filter. The filter outlet goes to the oil pump gauge / prime fitting on the block. Use a Tee to retain the gauge / prime functions.
I use Mobile 40w oil because I got two drums of it for free. I know that's thicker than recomended, but the price was right!
My engine has poorly fitted grease cups for rocker arm lubrication. I hand oil the rockers with 40w. Anything better?
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

cujet

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2005, 11:56:55 AM »
I have been pondering lubrication also. I have a 20/2 on the way. Like you, I think a spin on filter is probably a good idea. Also, I purchased a Motorguard bypass filter(the toilet paper kind). I like this because it keeps oil really clean. I plan on using one for fuel and one for oil.

Rocketboy made an accumulator (with an inlet orifice) to attach a hobbs pressure switch to. He notes 4 (four) PSI oil pressure. However I noticed that his direct reading gauge read peaks of near 30 PSI. This means the oil squirts for a moment, then remains idle, 'till the next squirt. Adding anything to the oil system that smooths out the flow must be carefully considered. As loosing that squirt could starve parts of oil, depending on design of course.

I had thought about adding an additional sump for oil to settle. Mounted underneath and hooked up with 2 small lines, on on each side of the bottom of the engine. This would give the oil in the second sump time to settle, even while the engine is running. But the main advantage is additional time between oil changes. A good thing here in Hurricane central.

Chris
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quinnf

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2005, 06:28:17 PM »
GerryH posted the following to the I Got My First Lister forum.  I thought it was appropriate to this topic as well:

(Quoth Gerry:)
Hi Quinn,
You know, I may be wrong but I think the only reason not to go miltigrade is the lack of filtration. The old straight mineral lubes recommmended are good because the crud settles out (in theory) and are readily available in India. I would have a terrible time finding straight 30wht engine oil without detergent in Canada. I like Rotella myself. It also depends on whether your Lister works for a living like Jack's, or is a hobby, or is a standby unit for power outages. I'll address this as me and rocketboy are in the same boat. We want an engine that sleeps when not needed, but we want to kick it awake and work it's ass off for a few days/hours and then ignore it for a while. For this I want a diesel grade detergent 15-40 wt oil and I'll rig up a filter.

Gerry

My reply:
Gerry,

I don't think multigrade is relevant to filtration, but the decision whether or not to use detergent vs. non-detergent certainly is, and that's probably what you really meant   ;) 

The advantage of detergent oils is that they keep particles in suspension, so they can be picked up by the oil filter within one pass through the engine.  When Lister-type  were made, most engines were splash lubricated, so high pressure oil pumps and pressurized oil filters were not common as they are today.  In order to get the crud out of the engine sump, you would have to run the engine up to temperature, then shut it down and drain the oil quickly, then remove the crankcase access plate and wipe or scrape out any accumulation in the bottom of the sump.  The advantage of using detergent oil is that the crud stays in suspension even after shut down, which makes it easier to ensure you are getting most of the dirt out of the engine at each oil change. 

I believe all multiviscosity oils are also detergent oils.  The multiviscosity feature is an advantage in climates with large temperature swings.  A 10W-40 oil, for example, has the viscosity of 10-weight at 32 F (0 C) and of 40-weight at 212 F (100 C).  If your engine is used for standby power, that is a distinct advantage because it's easier to crank over an engine that uses multivis. oil at low temperatures, and the engine will have proper lubrication immediately after startup, with no need to allow the engine to warm up before applying a load.

Be careful about runnin any oil filter in line with the oil supplied by the Lister/Listeroid type oil pumps.  They're not designed to develop any appreciable pressure like the gear-driven oil pumps in a car engine that can develop 80 psi.  Modern spin-on oil filters usually are intended to be installed on cars, and the design assumes that there is a pressure bypass valve before the inlet to the oil filter.  So if the filter were to become restricted, oil would be diverted from the filter and continue to lube the engine components.  With a Listeroid, there is no such bypass filter.  If your filter clogs (unlikely) or restricts flow (likely), the oil flow to your bearings could be affected.

Were I you, I'd consider getting a small gear pump and running  it off an electric motor driven by the generator.  The pump would take oil from the sump, run it througha  spin-on oil filter element, then return it to the sump.  That way, you still have oil filtration, but you haven't compromised the design of the system by adding a filter that Lister never intended the on-board oil pump to run.

Does that make sense?

I'm going to cross-post this to the Lubrication forum here.

Quinn

swedgemon

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2005, 08:46:55 PM »
Howdy all,

Pretty much ALL engine oil sold today is detergent...look at the API "donut" on top of the can; you will see "SE/CD", "SF/CD-4", "SG/CE", etc.,  indicating various levels of gasoline and diesel performance.

Quinn had it right on viscosities...a 15W-40 will crank and pump like a 15W when it is cold, yet provide the load-carrying oil film of a 40 when it is hot.  A given diesel (without ether) needs to attain a certain cranking speed to start when it is cold and hand-cranking a really cold Listeroid with SAE 40 would be a physical challenge.

I haven't seen it all, but I have been working in the on and off-highway diesel industry for 35 years...a 15W-40 made by any of the major oil companies will work well in a Listeroid.  Mobil Delvac 1 is a really great full-synthetic (5W-40 rating), and although I use it in my VW Jetta diesel, I consider it over-kill in a Lister-type (unless you are in a really cold, cold area).

If fitting an external oil pump and filter, be certain the oil pump has an internal relief valve (within the pump) or an external relief valve (maybe on the head of the oil filter), because even a 15W-40 is right thick when it is cold.  No relief valve on the pump or filter will result in "blown" filter with cold oil.  Once the oil is up to running temp, very little pressure is required to put a gallon or two a minute through a typical spin-on filter.
Swedgemon
Somewhere in Kentucky

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rpg52

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2005, 11:15:40 PM »
Hmm, interesting topic.  Here's my $0.02.  It would seem to me the best filtration system for a listeroid with an oil pump would be a by-pass, like the first oil filters.  My antique (1946) diesel engine has a by-pass that passively accepts oil under very low (or no)  pressure that drains from the the valve train, into the filter canister, through the filter and back into the sump.  Subsequently developed full flow filters take all of the oil, under pressure, and do require a bypass valve so that if they clogged, the oil flow would bypass the filter altogether on its way to lubricate the engine.  The advantage to a old-style by-pass filter (according to some opinions at least) is that since the filtration is passive and relatively slow, the oil is filtered more throughly.  A clogged by-pass would just stop filtering, and would not affect the oil delivery to any of the bearings.  The full flow filters supposedly have to much coarser filtration since the oil has to move through it under pressure.  All this discussion is purely theoretical in my case, and since I won't have a listeroid to practice it on for another week or so, I'm not yet sure how I will connect a filter.  I do plan to install a by-pass though, once I figure out the best way to do it.  More insightful opinions please!
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

quinnf

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2005, 11:57:02 PM »
Ray, opinions are like smelly feet.  Everyone has at least two.  Here's mine a little expanded on from an earlier post: 

Of course any filtration is better than none, but I keep reading posts from people saying they are going to tap into the outlet from the oil pump and filter the oil at that point.  That's where I think you have to mentally take a step back, a deep breath and maybe a cold shower,  because the pump may not have sufficient cojones (a technical term) to pump through whatever restrictiion the filter might provide.  From what Swedgemon says, it's likely not much.  But remember that spin-on oil filters were intended to be fed by high capacity, high pressure gear pumps, not the puny piston pump that is found on even the finest original Lister diesel.  And yes, replace that Indian spring or you might regret it, as Rocketboy nearly did.

That's why I vote for leaving the lube system alone on your 'roid and filtering the oil in the pan through a separate electric pump and filter.  If it clogs, no harm, your engine will continue running just fine.  Also, these engines run so slowly that it's probably not necessary to continuously filter the oil.  A small electric pump could even run on a timer so as to filter oil intermittently. 

We all have a tendency to want to "hot rod" these engines and improve them, and that's half the fun of having one and playing with it.  Just keep in mind that when R.A. Lister was making these engines, their innards bathed in unfiltered, non-detergent single viscosity oil and ran for many tens of thousands of hours in a damp climate with little attention.  (now where can I find a cheap turbocharger?)

Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and all that.   ;)

Quinn

rpg52

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2005, 12:11:06 AM »
Quinn, you won me over to your way of thinking.  One question is now, where is a source of cheap and available small electric pumps, and, what to use for filters?  I'm thinking cujet is on the right track with the Motorguard filter.  Check this out:  http://www.bypassfilter.com/product.htm
$130 for the filter housing seems a bit steep, but the price of a roll of tp for a filter change seems pretty reasonable.  They (Motorguard) say they are the answer for fuel filters too. 
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

cujet

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2005, 01:58:28 AM »
Because a bypass filter actually filters a tiny portion of the oil, I believe it lends itself to the lister quite well. Ralph Wood sells the package ready to go. However I purchased mine from an auto paint internet store for $47. I got 4 of them. They need a few mods to work as oil filters. Might be better to purchase from Ralph for those without a lathe. Remember that Ralphs units have large orifices (designed for auto applications) that will probably need to be replaced with a smaller one. My guess is that a 0.030 orifice is about all the lister needs.

What do you guys think about my additional sump idea?

Chris
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2005, 03:42:20 AM »
I liked the response to the full flow filter proposal. I see now that the oil pump SQUIRT may be most important.  With gauge readings of 30 psi peak as opposed to 4 psi average to a gauge on a accumulator, it is something to think about.  On the other hand, I am also thinking that there is one squirt per two crankshaft revolutions, because the oil pump plunger is run off a cam lobe. So maybe oil PRESSURE is not that important? Maybe we just need enough Oil pressure to get a FLOW of enough oil to the highest bearing above the pump.
As for the bypass valve in a full flow oil filter, I posted:
( I think the oil pump discharge check valve on the pump top could be blocked or restrained with a stiffer spring,)
The stiffer spring on the oil pump discharge check valve would let cold oil bypass the filter, then as the oil warmed up would  allow filtration. An oil filter without air in it would not "accumulate", oil being non compressable.
The downside of this would be a  "Made in India" loose plunger fit might leak too much to push warm oil thru any increased restriction (the filter).
If the oil pump was designed properly, then it draws the least amount of engine power required to do the job. That would mean that it does not have much reserve pressure or flow for us to mess around with.
Now everything is clear as mud. Perhaps the path of least resistance; run it like Lister intended? Add bypass filtration? Check the oil pump plunger spring during oil changes? ALWAYS wipe out the sump and inspect the suction strainer and magnets at oil change. I think the oil suction strainer is too coarse.
As for the extended oil sump.....how would you design it? Take off the oil suction tube and add an external tank at the same level, then hook the pump suction to the new tank? You could put an old cotton towel or your worn out socks in there to act as a passive filter? Now that's what I call recycling!

Why is the Motorgaurd filter prefered over the FRANTZ? Or is it?

Scott
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 04:12:39 AM by SHIPCHIEF »
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

GerryH

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 04:23:19 AM »
Quinn;
I couldn't have said it any better. I'm planning on the bumfluff filter at some point as I have used these before.

Gerry

rpg52

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 04:37:46 AM »
I don't pretend to be any kind of authority on any of this, :-\ but, regarding your posts cujet and shipchief - George B mentions extending the sump in his CD, but he says the latest listeroid variant he is importing has a deep sump, more like the original Lister design.  He thinks the greater depth allows a deeper pool that would achieve greater settling of gunk than some of the other designs.  Until I actually see and operate a listeroid, I hesitate to give anyone advice on how to extend the sump, but George seemed to indicate it was a very straight foreward extension of the sump with any other container - seems like a propane tank or anything that holds the oil would be fine.  I think the added volume and additional settling area is the advantage more than anything else.  He seems to think that the engine rotation throws around so much oil that the pump may be superfluous anyway.  Whether that is true of the 2 cylinder versions, I don't know.   Regarding the Motorguard vs. Franz, I think they are both evolved from the same design.  Which one may be better today, again, I haven't any idea.  Is there much of a price difference between them? 
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

quinnf

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2005, 05:48:50 AM »
rpg52 asked about what kind of pump I'm talking about to pump the oil.

 http://www.surpluscenter.com has a number of pumps from time to time that would work.  Don't have their catalog handy right now, but the 2005 catalog  had some small capacity electric gear pumps that could handle hot liquids just fine.  Another way to go would be to use a pump for an "instant" hot water system.  I've seen these at Ho' Depo' for about 60 dollars.  They're bronze and used for pumping domestic hot water.   A few feet of flexible 1/4" copper tubing, some  fittings and you could suck the oil out the oil drain plug, pump it through your filter, then return through the camshaft end oil plug next to the exhaust lifter.  Any pump that can handle the temperature should work fine.  I'll see if I can find a specific pump and post a number here.

NAPA auto parts has external oil and fuel filter mounts that accept a spin-on filter.  They're about 35 dollars.  You can search and find them on NAPA's website, but rotsa ruck getting the order to go through.  They probably want you to go to a store and order it there, since their online ordering doesn't work,  and they're not particularly concerned about getting it fixed.

Quinn

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2005, 05:02:57 AM »
I'm mostly concerned with the casting sand getting by the coarse strainer in the bottom of the sump that the oil pump sucks thru.  I didn't dissasemble my engine because it looked pretty clean inside. Magnets won't stop sand, so I think full flow filtration is in order. Unless you have disassembled and hot tanked / pressure washed the engine, it will likely drop sand forever. The filter could be simple and maybe just a cotton cover for the suction strainer.
 I couldn't get the strainer out of my engine block, I was afraid to break off the fitting, so I just washed it in place and hoped for the best, but now I'm having second thoughts...
Scott
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

quinnf

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2005, 06:18:16 AM »
Scott,

Yes, I think a 1/2" Y-strainer (plumbing type) with a fine screen, or even just some polyester fluff stuffed in over the screen  would catch any grit that might get sucked into the inlet.  Actually, the oil flow would likely be low enough, the grit would probably settle out in the arm of the strainer and could be removed easily enough just by removing the cap on the strainer.


sid

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Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2005, 01:43:48 PM »
just a thought on putting magnets in the sump//good idea. but you need the magnets first and good magnets are are bonus around the shop.I have them stuck on every thing. I can not work on anything unless I drop small items on the floor or worse in the grass.so a good source of magnets ( free) in that old junk microwave oven.I even pick them up off the street. especilly the small ones that are easy to get in the truck.  if you take the microwave apart you will find 2 very strong roung magnets.but the  only down side is they are in the mag. tube. and do not come out on their own.. you have to put the mag in a vice and tear it open. which usually results in a few scratches and a little blood but a good pair of gloves solve that problem. now for the other warning... be sure to discharge the capicator first/ just short the 2 top terminals of the capicator with an insulated screwdriver.the newer ones are usually no problem but if you get an older one , if might still be charged. sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc