IS AWESOME

[GuyFawkes]

while i too think big oil is a pain, it is not the boogie man, trying to keep us in a box.

there simply is too many of us and the box is way to small.

there may have been a case or something to look at 40 years ago, when there was only the big three and amc, and the oil companies had enormous clout and connections.

the bottom line is there hasnt been alot of serious, scientific testing, with proper double blind testing on a large enough sampling of automotive engines to arrive at any solid evidence that burning straight vegie oil is ok in an automotive engine. There is however quite a bit of evidence that there are concerns that it will indeed cause problems. So untill there is a large study done no one can say for sure it is safe to do so.

so i guess do so at your own risk.

bob g

two points, current exchange rate is 1.87 us dollars to the pound

1/ I drive an old renault 19 diesel, I paid 150 UK pounds for it, couple of weeks ago I did a 550 mile round trip, most of it on motorways (fast) and returned 51+ mpg (uk gallons) on that trip. Diesel is 1 uk pound a litre (yes, that's US$1.87 a litre) and a full tank is some 35 pounds, I don't run WVO or VO in this car, even though it is old and cheap, and diesel is expensive, because it is old and cheap and 100% reliable on expensive diesel

2/ we live in a capitalist society, car and oil companies make money selling us stuff, which is why stupid fuel inefficient lumbering great cars are selling today better than even, and peak oil isn't going to motivate an oil company to do anything while they are still able to pump

read up on the Tragedy of the Commons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

[rpg52]

Thanks Guy for the opportunity to re-read the Tragedy of the Commons.  Tho my interest in Listers comes from my boyhood on a farm, my formal training was in biology/ecology, and first read Garratt Hardin's essay a few years after it was written.  Sad to say, it is still spot on.  (Check out the topic of internet flaming near the bottom!)

Unfortunately the essay and it's understanding of how human societies behave are often misunderstood today, we humans haven't changed.  Many of the current tragic trends are a consequence of our ignorance of how to manage resources.  (e.g., the genocide in Darfur is competition between farmers and grazers, the slave trade in Cambodia is a result of their population climbing from 6 to 14 million in one generation, the past genocide in Rwanda came from one of the highest population densities in Africa, oil wars in the Middle East, etc., etc....

Getting back to the topic at hand, WVO use as fuel is a choice, but really, the only reason they can be considered is that they are a side product of our huge, lumbering economy.  If veggie oils are cheap enough, they can be used as fuel, but that doesn't necessarily mean they ultimately make sense over the long term.  Yeah, I'm well aware of the CO2 argument, but they are only available because they are a waste product of fried food, (which used to be a luxury food because of the cost of the oil, until relatively recently.)

Personally, I don't use WVO because I hate working with grease, and avoid it if possible.  For those with free access to it, good luck to you, but I seriously doubt that using WVO is going to save the world.  IMHO, when petroleum prices make human labor feasible again, we can all get back to doing the drudge labor that employed most of our ancestors for the last 10,000 years, and our populations can again come into balance with available resources.  Yeah, I'm gonna hate it too, but what are you going to do?   

Meanwhile, back at the farm, if I can only fix the tractor hydraulic problem, I'll be able to unload my listeroid/generator from the back of my pickup and mount it on my foundation.  Then I can finish my sawmill and look foreward to my declining years as a gentleman farmer/sawyer.  Really doesn't make much sense, but it's a lot of fun! 
Ray

[Thomas]

Ray whts wrong with the tractor?   Tom T

[kpgv]

Hi Kdawg,
I've been trying to "understand" your obtuse "out of nowhere" takes.
I noticed you occasionally post to another list, and there, you are courteous, and not too prolific, yet "that" forum is much more useful, and "grooved" to your "deal".
What's different here?
Just curious.

Kevin

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love

[kpgv]

You used the "I" word...own it.
Also "Murderous Bastards", which is a noose I will allow you to "hang" yourself on if you chose.
As I recall, previously, you have also accused  (parphrasing here) "importers and dealers of ripping off buyers".
Stay away from that "fuel grade ethanol". It's NOT a good thing.


Kevin

[Firebrick]

Kyra
I would have to agree with the obtuse statement, not exactly ignorant, but you seem to want to make or incorporate the highest tech into a very simple engine.  Ruins the whole point/purpose if you ask me.  Also if you wanted to lower your dependence on big oil why buy a such a large truck?  Why not a hybrid or a scooter? Burning alcohol or Vegtable oil does not change your consumption of oil, it just places it some where else(natural gas for fertilizer and chemicals, fuel for the tractors, fuel to transport and process the crops)  Or are you just upset at the prices they charge? 

[kyradawg]

Brick,

It has nothing to do the with costs of dino based fuel I would gladly pay double for a fuel that isnt so expensive.

Im fairly confident that it takes more energy to provide 1 gallon of refined crude oil to my neighborhood station than it does to bring one gallon of canola to my grocery store not to mention the huge reduction in emissions that bio-fuels allow.


The truck is actually the most efficient vehicle I could have chosen. I inherited the truck from my father saving us the energy that would have been used in the production of a new vehicle. My F-250 came to me with 150,000 miles on it when I got it now has 180,000 and is just starting to feel broke in. I use only vegetable oil based lubercants in the engine as fuel and lube as well as in the transmission as hydraylic fluid and as soon as I create a suitable viscosity modifier I will be using it in the front and rear axles as well. All the systems in my truck perform better than they did with mineral oil based lubes.


As far as adding "tech" to these simple engines I simply strive for mechanical perfection as I see it.


Obtuse? definitly! But the alternative definition= BLUNT and really proud of it .

Peace&Love , Darren

[sawmiller]

Hey Dawg

How much does that gallon of canola cost.

Tim

[GerryH]

The wonderful smooth running SVO, WVO thing--
I had to smile remembering my own experiences. I was running a small gold mine in the arctic, and the fuel farm was across the swamp from the mine and mill. No problem, I had a Nodwell and 1000 gal tank. (for those who don't know, a Nodwell is like the worlds largest snowmobile. Twin tracks 36 in wide and a 10ft deck)

It had a 6 cyl Ford gas engine, and I had no gas.
I would have to fly it in, and we would have to shut down till the plane came.

So--I knew I could run on diesel. I filled the tank and started it up. They run like they are cold, lean, and badly advanced under load. At no load they are the quietest, sweetest running engine you could want. I decided I would never bother with gas, this was too good to be true!

One day after hauling a load of fuel, one of the men came rushing up and said "The nodwell is pouring out crankcase oil!" I looked and found the crankcase full to overflowing with diesel fuel that had washed past the rings and diluted the oil. Only some of the lighter fractions of diesel burns with spark ignition.

Sometimes things are not as good as they seem at first.

Oh, BTW, you can also run a Stihl 045 chainsaw on straight diesel and it also keeps the bugs away.

[kyradawg]

Gerry,

On the two stroke cycle note Ive done some experimenting with two stroke lube oils.

I took a stihl sting trimmer and inserted a digital thermometer inbetween the cooling fins on the cylinder head I then mixed up a small batch of premix with brand X mineral oil two cycle lube. I fired the trimmer and allowed it to idle until the temperature stopped rising and stablised noting the sound and idle quality and most importantly temperature then I held the trimmer at WOT again untill the temp stabilized noting sound and temperature. I did this until all the fuel was gone.

I then mixed up another batch of premix using olive oil. They used to use peanut oil back in the day due to its low molecular weight that lends to low piston crown deposits. I chose olive oil because it has an even lower the lowest in fact molecular weight of readily available veggie oils. I then repeated the above tests.

The trimmer ran five to 10 degrees cooler on olive oil lube, the temp is directly related to engine friction the lower the temp the less the friction. The olive oil allowed less engine friction. The trimmer was MUCH more responsive to throttle inputs had a better idle quality and seemed to attain a higher maximun rpm.

Peace&Love , Darren

[kyradawg]

Tim, Ive found bulk (by the ton) canola for $1.50/gal

Peace&Love , Darren

[GuyFawkes]

Brick,

It has nothing to do the with costs of dino based fuel I would gladly pay double for a fuel that isnt so expensive.

Im fairly confident that it takes more energy to provide 1 gallon of refined crude oil to my neighborhood station than it does to bring one gallon of canola to my grocery store not to mention the huge reduction in emissions that bio-fuels allow.


The truck is actually the most efficient vehicle I could have chosen. I inherited the truck from my father saving us the energy that would have been used in the production of a new vehicle. My F-250 came to me with 150,000 miles on it when I got it now has 180,000 and is just starting to feel broke in. I use only vegetable oil based lubercants in the engine as fuel and lube as well as in the transmission as hydraylic fluid and as soon as I create a suitable viscosity modifier I will be using it in the front and rear axles as well. All the systems in my truck perform better than they did with mineral oil based lubes.


As far as adding "tech" to these simple engines I simply strive for mechanical perfection as I see it.


Obtuse? definitly! But the alternative definition= BLUNT and really proud of it .

Peace&Love , Darren

I have a saying for you.

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

it feels like I've met a million people like yourself over the years, all evangelising about some miracle fuel or product they have discovered, I used to get into a serious scientific / technical discussion with them and explain why their miraculous results were meaningless scientifically, because they weren't testing the right things in the right way, and only noting superfluous stuff that didn't tell the story, but happened to back up their version of events.

Nowadays I just leave them to it, sit back, and wait for the inevitable.

The inevitable being when they go quiet / disappear / come back with tales of woe.

Even in the few months I've been on this forum I've seen three or four people go quiet.

Course, they *might* just be busy elsewhere making a million out of their thing.....

----------------------------------------

You want to even have the most fundamental and simple pre-requisites to support your argument, stop talking right now.

Strip your truck into components, blueprint and document everything (that'll cost you about 20 thousand bucks in equipment and calibration of same and a month or two in time, then run it hard, 100,000 miles a year, on each fuel, while making meticulous records of abolutely everything, then strip it and blueprint it again and analyse the results.

All you've done so far is prove you're a tightwad who took a good truck and ran it on generic consumables for a paltry 30,000 miles, and it ain't died yet. THAT, my friend, is a scientific fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

[rpg52]

Ray whts wrong with the tractor?   Tom T

Tom - long story, the shortest version is, while lifting a log, it suddenly lost hydraulic power.  I did the following:   1) pulled the controls and had them rebuilt - it had been 40+ years;  2) pulled hydraulic pump, replaced various seals & gaskets;  3)  tested pump with 3000# gauge attached directly;  4) replaced main line from pump to controls;  5)  made tool and attached gauge to pilot relief valve to adjust.   None of these actions had any effect on the problem, in which the system only buillds ~3-400# pressure (even though the pump develops 1500#+) and whines loudly when one of the control levers is applied. 

I now believe the problem is in one of the individual (non-adjustable) relief valves for each control spool.  I've been told that the poppet can stick or not seat and allow pressure to bleed past the controls.  I'm going to take them apart individually and try to find a bad one, lacking that (I've also been told they may not look bad, but still allow fluid to pass), I'll just try replacing them all.  It's been a year and a half, and I'm really getting tired of the whole thing.  Incidentally, the tractor is a '59 International T-340, one of the smallest crawlers made (5' wide) with a 4 in 1 bucket.

Still thinking positive 
Ray

[GuyFawkes]

i'd put money on the spool being the problem, likely cause is filters failed or sat too long, or, condensation in tank caused oil to acidify, so check your breather too, and flush and replace the oil, fit new filters etc

btw if one spool is gone, likelihood is others are going too, so do em all.

not an expensive job once you've got new seals etc, but please please remember everything must be surgically clean, so no smoking over it, no blowy dusty day, no grimy hands or tools or clothes.

HTH