Author Topic: IS AWESOME  (Read 20886 times)

kyradawg

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IS AWESOME
« on: May 24, 2006, 03:12:24 PM »
I pour in (canola) into my f-250's fuel tank I dont heat it in any way my truck cold starts EASIER AND QUICKER (tested down to 50*f) runs with more power, smoothness and much less diesel knock. The above statement comes with no ifs ands or buts just simply the truth.


Peace&Love :D, Darren

mjn

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2006, 04:43:53 PM »
It absolutely will work.  The biggest risk at injecting cold vegetable oil (VO) into a cold diesel engine is that the oil does not combust completely and eventually ends up in the rings.  Once the engine gets up to heat the VO in the rings turns to carbon.  Eventually, your rings get stuck and stop sealing.  Once that happens, your engine won't start.

This was proven in the early studies of running VO in diesel.   (These studies are still quoted as reasons why you should never put vegetable oil in a diesel engine.)  The problem with these studies is that did not attempt to heat the VO.  Since that time there has been millions of miles driven on heated VO.

You are welcome to do this on your engine as long as you are aware that eventually you will be paying the price.


Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

kyradawg

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2006, 03:12:11 AM »

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 04:55:12 AM by kyradawg »

solarguy

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2006, 05:07:39 PM »
He's right Darren.

Ten minutes on Google will reveal that this has been studied a fair amount by real scientists, and that running unheated SVO is pretty sure to cause long term engine damage, particularly to a direct injection engine.

Finest regards,

troy

mjn

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2006, 05:25:47 PM »
I let myself be caught in the "studies have shown" trap.  Fair enough, I did a bit of digging.

I think the best resource is a report done at the university of Idaho which summarizes the previous studies.  The report is available here http://www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/raw%20vegetable%20oils_literature%20review.doc
(sorry for the .doc format).

The conclusion of the report:
Quote
Conclusions
Many studies involving use of un-modifed vegetable oils in blend ratios with diesel fuel exceeding 20 percent were conducted in the early 1980’s. Short-term engine testing indicates that vegetable oils can readily be used as a fuel source when the vegetable oils are used alone or are blended with diesel fuel. Long-term engine research shows that engine durability is questionable when fuel blends contain more than 20% vegetable oil by volume. More work is needed to determine if fuel blends containing less than 20% vegetable oil can be used successfully as diesel fuel extenders.

In general, nearly every study done indicated that there was mild to severe problems when running either straight or blends of vegetable oil.   In every case where a study indicates problems, the VO was not heated, or was not degummed.

Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

ixtow

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2006, 06:58:17 PM »
What studies? Have you personally seen these results or are you just repeating what you've been told? Just sounds like you may be verbilizing unfounded opinion as factual negitive propaganda.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

We're just trying to help out man...  You're right, it'll start and run on old canola...  For about 5,000 miles if you're lucky.  Then you can buy a new block, rings, pistons, etc.....

kyradawg

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 01:11:59 AM »
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Big oil puts out quite a bit of misinformation.

Im gonna keep running my diesels that seem to be running better and better on unheated veggie untill either I have or someone can show me coking problems in a nonstationary engine due to lack of preheating the oil.

Its my take that it is repressive folks (big oil) or people that have been repressed by big oil that believe it is neccessary to modify there engines to run flawlessly on canola oil.

The main reason for said modifications and there precieved "need" is to undermind the fact that a readily available renewable fuel is a better option than what is being offered by those selfish murderious bastards. The fact that modifications are "necessary" kills the gen pop interest.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

fuddyduddy

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2006, 02:49:47 AM »
Kur Dog,

Will post one more time on this forum.

You sir, are a charlatan; when you define those who advise using the "golden" rules for running vegetable oils in a diesel engine; that is, heating, and/or treating (chemically), and/or diluting, as " selfish murderous bastards", then you sir, have proven that you are 1) NOT knowledgeable about the subject, 2)are incapable of discussing the subject, and 3)should immediately be ejected from this forum, since you do not even own a "Lister" or "listeroid", and your (what you say) is your VERY short time of running whatever you run in your Ford pickup as having any connection WHATSOEVER to reality as concerns OUR Listeroids, etc. Please do us all the favor of refraining from your inane, puerile attempts at information.

Persons such as "hotater", "Dana Linscott", RPG, JohnF, Bob in Nevada, Bob in Washington, and many, many others are eminently more qualified to say what is real than you. They "walk the walk" every day; they provide electricity, hot water, and the comforts of home for their loved ones, and do it without BS or crap about "Mother Gaia", pollution, and so on, ad nauseum.

Your sir, shovel sh**, and even do it without regard for what it is you are shoveling, how you shovel it, or where it lands.

Please do us all the favor of going elsewhere. 

Fuddy Duddy

Halfnuts

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2006, 04:24:09 AM »
I was happy to ignore him, but since you brought it up, I agree it's tiring listening to the hateful ranting of a bigoted idiot who can't spell.  None so blind as he who WILL NOT see and all that.  "Don't confuse me with the facts.  Big Oil has financed all those studies that are contrary to my religion."

"If I want to extrapolate from my limited experience running undefined WVO in a:

high speed, V-8, direct injection, electronically-controlled 4 valve/cylinder variable speed non-stationary engine, then it stands to reason that my experience should enlighten all you idiot running-dog capitalist pig supporters of Big Oil sucking the lifeblood out of mother Gaia out there running your

slow speed, single or dual cylinder, indirect injection, mechanically controlled, 2 valve/cylinder, constant speed stationary engines.  I mean, what's the difference at the end of the day?"

Peace and Love  ;D
Halfnuts

(I agree the foregoing was neither loving, nor kind, and I'm beginning to feel bad about posting this 'cause this isn't what I'm all about, but I've really had it with this shit)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 04:32:28 AM by Halfnuts »

DirtbikePilot

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2006, 04:32:25 AM »
Joel, why are you such a jerk all the time? I mean really, you put people down and get all fired up about something that doesn't even matter. I spent over $3000 dollars on your products and said one thing you didn't aprove of. Now you hate me forever, curse the day you first saw me, and probably wish I was dead. If you got some councelling, you could be a MUCH happier person, but people in your situation almost never push their pride out of the way and get some. It's your loss. You can go around hating everyone all the time, or just enjoy your life. You would thank me every day for the rest of your life if you just trusted me and actually did it. Now, off my soap box....

As for the VO, if you are running it very diluted in regular diesel fuel or biodiesel, then I think he will be ok. It's when people run enough oil to significantly thicken the fuel that problems arise. As long as the oil/fuel atomizes, it will burn just fine.

Darren, are you running pure canola, or just a mixture of canola and diesel? If you are pooring in one gallon of canola with each fill up of about 20 gallons of diesel fuel, I doubt you will ever have any problems. You're injection system will probably last longer due to the added lubricity too.
Currently no listeroids, sad........ very sad.....
Just some other antique engines ranging from 40 pounds to 33,000 pounds each.

Halfnuts

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2006, 04:38:52 AM »
Chris, his point is that Darren's experiences are about as irrelevant as they can be to the subject of running WVO in the engines this forum is named for.  As for who the jerk is, you aren't in a very good position to pass judgment on someone else's character, given your past, so why don't you take advantage of others' experience  instead of taking potshots at them?

Halfnuts
« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 04:43:40 AM by Halfnuts »

DirtbikePilot

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2006, 04:40:47 AM »
Oh Darren, here's a little trick I learned: if you hold down "alt" and then hit 0176 on your keypad (make sure the num lock is off) it will make a little degree symbol ° and you dont need to use *. Cool huh? ;D
Currently no listeroids, sad........ very sad.....
Just some other antique engines ranging from 40 pounds to 33,000 pounds each.

DirtbikePilot

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2006, 04:56:45 AM »
Chris, his point is that Darren's experiences are about as irrelevant as they can be to the subject of running WVO in the engines this forum is named for.  As for who the jerk is, you aren't in a very good position to pass jusdment on someone else's character, given your past, so why don't you take advantage of others' experience  instead of taking potshots at them?

Halfnuts

Did you read what Joel posted? Was it necessary to say what he said in the way he said it? Darren is just posting his experience, is excited about his results this far, and people are really getting down on him. It's HIS engine. I don't know everything, but I am TRYING to be a nicer person and do what I can to try to help pick a guy back up who had been verbally beaten down without reason.

As for what I said to Joel, I really was trying to help the man. He is a good person at heart, but gets extremely mad over anything. That isn't passing judgement, that's reading what he posted. ??? This forum stuff is such a poor way to communicate. It's like reading every other word in a conversation. When things get heated like this, everything goes to pot.
Currently no listeroids, sad........ very sad.....
Just some other antique engines ranging from 40 pounds to 33,000 pounds each.

kyradawg

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2006, 05:00:18 AM »


Peace&Love :D, Darren

« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 04:48:41 AM by kyradawg »

mobile_bob

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Re: IS AWESOME
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2006, 05:26:02 AM »
damn i miss all the fun...
been so preoccupied with alternators i havent been keepin up on the rest of the board.

my take on pure vegetable oil in diesel engines, based on instincts and over 30 years working on diesel engines.

 a worn diesel engine such as an old 6.9 will probably burn vo and not do much damage to the engine, the old 6.9 was an indirect injection engine, and if there is enough wear in the injectors and pump, then it probably wont seize anything or cause problems with rings sticking or gumming up. also running a pickup at varying loads and speeds will probably keep most of the carbon blown out. it might also be worth noting that there is likely some engine oil leaking past the rings which will have a tendancy to preignite before injection raising combustion temps and knocking off a bit of carbon also. if i had clean straight vegie oil and an old 6.9 ford pickup i would probably run it and not worry alot about problems...

that being said, i would not under any circumstances run it in a modern 7.3 or 6.0 liter powerstroke or any other direct injection diesel with electronic unit injectors, reasons as follows

1. any acidity or alkalinity that varies from diesel fuel runs the very real risk of damaging very expensive injectors, last i checked can run 400 bucks each without labor to install them.

2. newer lower mileage engines fit tighter and rings may very well gum up, stuck rings cause all sorts of damage, such as burnt pistons and damaged cylinder walls (scoreing)

3. without solid testing of how vegie oil burns, and the flame propagation patterns within the combustion chamber however small it is, there exists the possibility of other problems, such as carbon chunks building up and breaking off and becomeing stuck to the sealing surface of the valves and seats. it only takes one small piece getting stuck under a seat under heavy load and high temps to adhere and cause the beginning of a burnt valve(s)

as far as burning it in a lister or a changfa, i am ok with it. lets face it, it doesnt take long to repair or decarbon one of these engines, and it is easy to tell when there is something amiss in a single cylinder before serious damage has occured. in an 8 cylinder engine, developing compression problems in one hole may not be evident until serious damage has taken place.

also in a stationary engine, usually the at the first sign of trouble the owner shuts it down to investigate, unlike a vehicle where you may not feel the problem in time or be many miles from home pulling a heavy load and decide to try and push or limp it home. And in doing so cause more damage.

as far as conspiracies go and the oil companies:

everyone has heard the story of the 100 mpg carb and how the big oil guys bought the patent rights or killed the guy or whatever.

the bottom line is anyone can modifiy a carb and an  auto to get incredible mileage, anyone!

the problem is one of driveability, startability, and reliability.

you set up a car to get that kind of mileage and no one will want to drive it much less buy it.

with literally hundreds of manufactures all over the world building cars and trucks it becomes insane to think that any one or all the oil companies could squeeze any one of them out. with competition what it is to sell cars if it was possible it would be done.

while i too think big oil is a pain, it is not the boogie man, trying to keep us in a box.

there simply is too many of us and the box is way to small.

there may have been a case or something to look at 40 years ago, when there was only the big three and amc, and the oil companies had enormous clout and connections.

the bottom line is there hasnt been alot of serious, scientific testing, with proper double blind testing on a large enough sampling of automotive engines to arrive at any solid evidence that burning straight vegie oil is ok in an automotive engine. There is however quite a bit of evidence that there are concerns that it will indeed cause problems. So untill there is a large study done no one can say for sure it is safe to do so.

so i guess do so at your own risk.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info