A moral dilemma

[GuyFawkes]

I find myself in a moral dilemma, and I'm posting it here because it is Lister related.

I'm not asking for advice per se, I don't really have any options, I just don't like the only avenue open to me.

But, it's a subject that I think many will relate to, eg dreams vs reality of CHP, so, if you;re interested and want to comment here, you can read all about it on the blog

http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/blog/archives/9-The-anguish-of-business-with-friends..html

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love , Darren

[mobile_bob]

ok here goes


1 chp system,,,,, 6000 pounds

cost of fuel to run it per annum ,,,,,, 6000 pounds

a great hobby and some measure of independence,,,,,, priceless!


i would agree that it feels like a moral dilemma, but i am not sure if it is real.
basically he is an educated man, obviously knows how to calculate, and is paying as he goes,,, so what is the problem.

some folks spend all sorts of money on frivolous crap,, ie boats, campers, time shares etc,, that they use like hell for the first year or two, then let rot from unuse.

some folks spend all sorts of money on crap to put up their noses, or shoot into their veins,,,

some folks spend all sorts of money at casino's where the odds of return is nearly nill.....

some folks like the ponies,,, some like the girls at strip clubs...

some folks like alcohol,, and drink themselves to death.....

yes there are even listerheads...... and god knows they spend alot of money and time catering to their addiction

at least for now society does not frown too heavily on your friends addiction.


on a serious note,,, i follow your thinking as to the viability of a chp unit.

is a stand alone chp going to be more economical than grid power?  the answer is no in almost every case.

in the few cases that might pan out to compete with grid power, these are based and supplying power to very small, super insulated,
insanely efficient homes  or some sort of industrial application that can use the tons of heat 24/7/365

so the question might be asked,, why do chp at all?

because if you are burning fuel to produce electicity it is the only way to do so with any real efficiency and at a rate that isnt 4 or 5 times higher than grid power.

chp for me services the following fuctions, most of which have no monitary value

1.  saves me the cost of bringing power into my building site,, est cost of $10k

2.  provides me with power when i need it, no power outages with redundant units

3.  will heat my domestic hot water, and provide some measure of heat to the home

4. will keep the batteries charged...

5. will enable me to sever one more tie the man has on me ...

6.  provide me with an engine room, a lab so to speak, a test bed for ideas

i think #6 to me is the most important,,, and the first five reasons are just iceing on the cake

according to my calculations, and based on a ~900 sq/ft home super insulated, properly oriented for solar gain and a
power consumption level of under 4 kwatt/hr /day...etc etc..
and factoring in all costs, of fuel , operation, and maintenance etc...
in chp cogeneration or trigeneration mode my cost per kwatt will still be somewhat higher than the grid, but....

my bill will be less,,, without line charges, taxes, and every other add on like rent on their meter etc.

factoring all costs apples to apples it will pan out to about a wash.... so i get #6 above for virtually no cost...

perhaps your friend has come to a similar conclusion.... maybe he has run the numbers and it works for him.

i think to be a human, and most particularly a male of the species,, we are driven to be independant, to invent
, to produce, make fire and all that stuff..

seems what has happened is the government and society in general has been methodically trying to strip us of this
innate need to do things on our own..  and make us all homogenous and solely dependant on them the providers.

some of us see that simple fact and i think it drives us even harder to break away, even when it would appear to be
less costly to stay in the fold.

sometimes a mans gotta do, what a mans gotta do.

bob g

[Halfnuts]

A friend's father once told me he sold a guy a dead horse.  

The way he told it, the buyer came over to his place and looked the horse over, spoke with the Vet (that's a guy who works at the horsepital), who said the horse was in fine condition.  He saddled the horse and rode around for a half hour or so, and was pleased.  A deal was struck, money changed hands, and a bill of sale was prepared and signed.  

The next day, the buyer showed up with his truck towing a horse trailer.  My friend's dad lead the horse to the trailer and that's when the trouble began.  Like many horses, this one was trailer-shy.  Just didn't like the concept on principal.  So the two men spent about an hour trying every trick they knew of to coax the horse to get in the trailer.  Suddenly the horse collapsed and died on the spot.  

The buyer didn't complain, and didn't ask for the return of his money.  He had taken the Vet's word that there was nothing wrong with the horse.  It was just one of those things.

In your case, Guy, your friend was apparently more enamored of the concept than he was of the numbers.  I think most (but not all) of us realize we're not in this to save money, but rather because the process of assembling something useful from a collection of parts is in itself satisfying.  The fact that it's old-fashioned, funky, unusual, and sounds and smells great are frosting on the cake.

Halfnuts

[GuyFawkes]

A friend's father once told me he sold a guy a dead horse. 

lol.... classic...

You should have let me get a beer first.

[GuyFawkes]

6.  provide me with an engine room, a lab so to speak, a test bed for ideas

that's me that is...

I have the start-o-matic, so that's 2.5 Kw @ 230 VAC sorted
I have a 3 Kw 120 VDC dynamo (to collect this week)
I have a compressor (to collect this week)
I need an air receiver and a hydraulic pump and some other bits, and a sturdy trailer to put it all on...

TONKA TOY!

[mobile_bob]

OH YAAAAAA

little boys erector sets use battery powered motors,

big boys erector sets use listers....

i like it

bob g

[solarguy]

Well, having a CHP unit in my basement, having run the spread sheet with all the factors I could think of over a year of actual operation, I came to the conclusion that it might almost pencil out to break even before I die.

Even before I made the decision to go ahead, I knew very clearly that it was not about saving money.  I don't think I'm losing a pile of money either, even counting the pittance interest on what I could have made by depositing the whole lot in a certificate of deposit.

But I do like the independence.  I am reducing my personal CO2 footprint.  I am saving real cash running my car on biodiesel, which I can use for both applications.  I do have the option to buy off grid property for cheap and tell the bank, the insurance company and the utility company to all jump in the icy lake together.

Your client is a grown man, and a fairly sophisticated one at that.  Build him  his panel and make him pay a fair price.  Tell him if he can show you a spread sheet with all associated costs for a year that still demonstrate this amazing savings, you'll give him a retroactive 25% discount.  The fair price you quote him should include this additional margin up front as legitimate profit anyway, and maybe, just maybe, he'll prove you wrong.

Finest regards,

troy

[Doug]

There's no issue here....

I buy sell and build electrical equipment. Often I see things that I feel are unwise or not cost effective. It is my responsibility as a manufacturer of industrial controls to follow up on safety, and point out defects. I can sugest things, but the customer is always right.
As long as your open about what you see and think before you sell a service your in the right.

Doug

[ironhead]

No worries Guy.  You haven't misrepresented your product and you are no more responsible for making sure your customers have a certain level of understanding of cost vs. return than are the 20,000 car salespeople pushing SUV's to Americans at todays fuel prices.  It's our reponsibility as consumers to research the things we spend our money on.  Free market, blah, blah. 

I'm into my 6/1 and all the crap belted to it for far more than I could ever save burning free dog shit for 20 years but that's not the reason I bought one.  I did the research, scratched my head and decided I wanted to mess with one.  Don't worry about why your customers buy them, just be proud you can provide what a customer wants.

From the cheap seats,

Mike

[GuyFawkes]

well,

1/ he ain't a customer per se, he and his wife are both friends.

2/ said my piece and the remedial work was done as required

3/ I think his wife is going to get herself an expensive hooby now too, otherwise his expensive hobby will be a bone between them... lol

4/ I really, really, reallly am going to have to get myself a home cnc mill and lathe

[listeroidsusa]

Hey Guy, if you're interested in CNC for the home shop check out Mach3 Professional CNC. It runs on XP and Windows 2000 and is a FREE download for up to 1000 lines of code. The license agreement is only $159 for all the bells and whistles, including CAM. I've got it on one of my machining centers and it runs great! (Modified with modIO for the 16 tool turret) The Mach3 version does run out at around 50 ipm (.0002 resolution) but I've found that faster rapid traverse is not a problem, especially for the price. Check out the wizards for the cam functions, you'll be impressed! Its not a Fanuc or Siemens but it does get the job done at a low cost. The new Mach4 under development is said to have speeds of up to 1800 ipm, running on GRex and a home computer! No financial interest, just a satisfied customer.

[GuyFawkes]

Thanks for that, but I've already crossed them off my list.

a/ it's closed source code, and the whole CAD/CAM/CAE market is iniquitous and makes MS look like fluffy bunnies.

b/ if there is one thing I have leaned about CNC or indeed any computer controlled equipment, it is that Windows, any flavour, doesn't cut it, it's not a real time OS, so while you're doing a rapid the OS takes time out for a system call and you run the spindle into the bed / chuck / toolchanger / whatever and everything breaks.... expensive in small machinery, possibly fatal in full size stuff

c/ at the moment my choice appears to be limited to sherline, the kit is good enough hardware wise, the OS used is not quite real time but bloody close, and open source, and the big plus is none of their range appears to be a part of any one else's range that has just been re-badged to make it seem like theirs.

[SHIPCHIEF]

Guy;
I'm with Doug and Ironhead on the moral issue.
1) You perform the switchgear work to safe and agreed standards.
2) You inform them about the safety issues of exposed DC terminals and incorrect system grounds, and be very insistant that it be corrected. (the insistant part is because of your relationship as friends)
3) You discuss the economic realities of CHP and let it go, because that is his choice and his buisness.
4) You let it go after this point, and let them know it. You have to have closure so life can go on.
You'll be fine, and so will they.
Scott E

[GuyFawkes]

I know what you mean, but I have a problem. if I sold you a car ten years ago and it blew up yesterday, I'd feel bad.

I know it's stupid, but I always feel like I own and am responsible for my work, no matter how long it's been.