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Author Topic: maybe we should make our own engines ?  (Read 12198 times)

cylinderheadnut

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maybe we should make our own engines ?
« on: March 18, 2011, 08:34:48 PM »
The CS must be one of the most basic engines going, mostly consists of castings, how much would it cost to make them properly on a small scale by modern methods in the west ?
 seeing the pictures on this site of the Indians casting dubious mixed scrap iron straight into a dirty sand floor, in their sandals, has kind of put me off !

dieselgman

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 12:38:13 AM »
Some folks are experimenting with that concept right now! If all the parts can be reproduced in sufficient quality without breaking the bank, then made in America may be a possibility.

dieslegman
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injin man

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2011, 01:27:47 AM »
What he said. ;D

Thob

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2011, 02:26:00 PM »
It's nice to know others have been thinking about this!

I've been thinking about it as well, but I really don't know where to start.  I think I need to get an original lister, and one of each clone.  Then decide what features I like, such as tapered roller bearings and counter-weighted crankshaft.  Then design an engine based on "the best" of everything.  Of course, everyone's idea of what is "the best" will vary.  Make patterns, get them cast, and start machining.

Of course, if I had that many engines to look over, I might not be so interested in making them!

Then there is the EPA.  It might be best to start out producing water cooled air compressors, that happen to look a lot like a lister.  But to appeal to a broader market, we need to build a complete, certified system.  Complete with guards around moving parts, proper labels, instruction manual, etc.

And then - there's the lawyers, liability insurance, etc.

In the mean time, I'm thinking about buying the spare parts kit from Central Main Diesel, welding up a junk iron crankcase, crankshaft, etc.  Anybody got a spare connecting rod I can have?  Probably go to the junk yard and pick up a couple of flywheels from a pickup diesel.  They should be big enough and come with a ring gear for electric start.  While I'm at it, get the timing belt, crank and cam gears, etc from a 4 cylinder gas engine.  Put the cam overhead with roller cam followers and the timing belt on the outside.  Junkaloid, anybody?

I need to retire so I'll have time to work on important stuff like this!
Witte 98RC Gas burner - Kubota D600 w/ST7.5KW head.
I'm not afraid to take anything apart.
I am sometimes afraid I'm not going to get it back together.

cylinderheadnut

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2011, 05:36:32 PM »
I don't think we have any EPA rules in the UK, we have alot of old listers, that nobody wants, however big old marine engines are still scarce, and have made a comeback, and a CS 30/2 would be very nice. With lost foam/ wax casting, and cnc machining i can't see it costing that much, after all you guys in the USA are having to totally rebuild the Indian crap anyway. And  how many units do you need to produce for such a small market ?

1: indirect ignition head
2: balanced crank
3: hydraulic tappets
4: self bleeding fuel lines
5: solid small diameter flywheel
6: oil cooled

anything else ?

These don't make it more complex, but are big improvements for no effort.



trowel

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2011, 06:11:10 PM »
im looking forward to a american listers, i would buy that for shure  ;D if any one casts everything for a lister in 1/2 scale along with the needed parts, i would go nuts for it too!, 1/2 scale lister would put it at about the size of a 10hp briggs, a true portable lister!!

Thob

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2011, 07:55:40 PM »
I almost forg0t -  QD bushings (or similar) on the flywheels.  No tapered gib keys!
Witte 98RC Gas burner - Kubota D600 w/ST7.5KW head.
I'm not afraid to take anything apart.
I am sometimes afraid I'm not going to get it back together.

deeiche

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2011, 11:22:21 PM »
If you are going to go down the casting route I am going to be the good American and say what about Witte horizontal diesel models?

Thob

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2011, 01:25:20 PM »
I saw pictures of a Witte on ebay; it wasn't too far from me so I bid on it but was outbid 2x.  Things I liked about it:

1) completely enclosed, the pushrods are inside tubes and the top of the head is sealed. (no dust problems)

2) pressure oil lube to the head (valves, rockers)

Are there any advantages/disadvantages of horizontal vs vertical?

I did some reading about the Witte engine, that's not a radiator on top but a condenser.  The engine runs hot enough to create steam from the water, which rises into the condenser, condenses, and drips back into the engine.  Temperature is regulated by the boiling point of the water.  Nice and simple, except that it uses a fan on the condenser (belt driven) and operating temp varies with the amount of anti-freeze.  Too much anti-freeze raises the boiling point and it overheats.  I think I like the thermo-siphon better.
Witte 98RC Gas burner - Kubota D600 w/ST7.5KW head.
I'm not afraid to take anything apart.
I am sometimes afraid I'm not going to get it back together.

cujet

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2011, 12:16:50 PM »
Consider that the EPA is a federal agency. They have zero authority if an engine is manufactured and used within a state. The state's EPA is however, a different story. The EPA gets it's authority from the interstate commerce clause. If no interstate commerce is involved, they have no authority.

Remember that engines don't need to be cast. They can also be welded or machined from solid. There are a number of small engine designs that use steel plate as the foundation for a prototype. Today, I'm certain we could laser cut various steel parts into shapes that "snap" into an engine block, some welding required :)

It would not be cost effective, but it could be worthwhile. Especially if the design used many existing parts.
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

deeiche

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2011, 12:31:43 PM »
Consider that the EPA is a federal agency. They have zero authority if an engine is manufactured and used within a state. The state's EPA is however, a different story. The EPA gets it's authority from the interstate commerce clause. If no interstate commerce is involved, they have no authority.

Remember that engines don't need to be cast. They can also be welded or machined from solid. There are a number of small engine designs that use steel plate as the foundation for a prototype. Today, I'm certain we could laser cut various steel parts into shapes that "snap" into an engine block, some welding required :)

It would not be cost effective, but it could be worthwhile. Especially if the design used many existing parts.
Unfortunately a federal agency, if they wanted to, "could" also invoke the ICC down to parts and raw materials.  Take a look at how the base chemicals for controlled substances has been regulated.  The invocation of ICC in this manner has been affirmed by the SCOTUS.

This will go on as long as the US people allow a bankrupt central government to control things.

cujet

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2011, 05:43:49 PM »
Consider that the EPA is a federal agency. They have zero authority if an engine is manufactured and used within a state. The state's EPA is however, a different story. The EPA gets it's authority from the interstate commerce clause. If no interstate commerce is involved, they have no authority.

Remember that engines don't need to be cast. They can also be welded or machined from solid. There are a number of small engine designs that use steel plate as the foundation for a prototype. Today, I'm certain we could laser cut various steel parts into shapes that "snap" into an engine block, some welding required :)

It would not be cost effective, but it could be worthwhile. Especially if the design used many existing parts.
Unfortunately a federal agency, if they wanted to, "could" also invoke the ICC down to parts and raw materials.  Take a look at how the base chemicals for controlled substances has been regulated.  The invocation of ICC in this manner has been affirmed by the SCOTUS.

This will go on as long as the US people allow a bankrupt central government to control things.

Actually, I believe that's only somewhat true. There are a few rulings that address this, and in every case, actual interstate commerce had to be affected. A private shipment of one piston across state lines is not enough. It would seem to have to be a large shipment. Or locally grown wheat, that affects where out of state wheat goes. Remember too, parts can be imported from overseas and/or sourced locally.

It's quite easy, to import con rods direct from India or China.
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

oldgit

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2011, 10:39:15 PM »
I can tell you this inside my uncles shop are patterns for cylinders and heads for a lister that he was trying to build. Unfortunately he passed away last November and his wife refuses to let anyone in the shop. There is also my labtop with cad models of these parts in the shop. I am trying to get the stuff and would happily share the cad stuff and the wood patterns. However my uncle was approaching the engine a bit different, he was trying to use a piston and rod from an old American diesel engine instead if the lister parts.  The designs I had drawn also has enclosed pushrods and rocker gear. This topic has been brought up before and thats where some of the ideas for using different parts came from. I would love to own a engine that I had partially designed other that the one in my car.

Thob

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 01:23:00 AM »
oldgit -

If you can share the CAD models I would be interested, if nothing else just to study and learn.  What format are they in?  Are they locked up as well?
Witte 98RC Gas burner - Kubota D600 w/ST7.5KW head.
I'm not afraid to take anything apart.
I am sometimes afraid I'm not going to get it back together.

injin man

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Re: maybe we should make our own engines ?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 02:49:53 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 06:35:25 PM by injin man »