Author Topic: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection  (Read 13288 times)

K.i.s.s

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Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« on: November 13, 2010, 08:24:16 PM »
Hi All,

Do any of you have any advice/words of wisdom or such regarding converting a DI to IDI. I have been mixing WVO with my diesel oil but if I happen to put too much WVO in the mix it really carbons up fast. After doing much reading I have learned that if I want to use WVO to any extent I should have an IDI engine.

The things I think I know are that if I make this conversion I will lose some horsepower (10/1 t0 6/1) because with the cast iron piston I won't be able to run at the 900 +/- rpm, will probably need to run more like 650 +/- rpm.

Could anyone tell me if I was to pre-heat the WVO/diesel oil mix would the carbon be less of a problem, are there any other considerations I should address or what?

Thanks,

Ray Z
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Tijean

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2010, 09:32:25 PM »
Does anyone know of a source of piston dimensions ? I am thinking that there will be a piston from another application that is flat topped aluminum. Are the head bolt dimensions the same from the GM 90 enines to the idi listeroids? Piston crowns have been  modified by welding but possible consequences are risky.

I think heating the fuel, possibly raising injector pressures, compression ratios, injection timing etc. can be beneficial but I have no personal experience with the issue.
Frank

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needenginerunnin

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2010, 10:14:42 PM »
my ten penerth
put a thermostat in your cooling system, stop/start on dino and pre heat your neat cooking oil with exhaust and change over to it once at 70c plus.
needenginerunnin
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Combustor

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 11:15:45 AM »
Hello K.i.s.s.
                Don't know if it will swap onto your 10/1 clone, but the Lister 8/1 had IDI heads and ally pistons. Believe some other clones also had them, so there may be alternatives. Worth talking to some Listeroid dealers to see what's possible,  Regards,  Combustor.
Toys include- Lister CS 8/1, Lister VA SOM plant and some Aussie engines.
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bschwartz

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 03:34:06 PM »
I think the flat top aluminum 8/1 pistons are available here
http://www.diesel-electric.us/csparts.htm
-Brett

1982 300SD, 1995 Suburban 6.5, 1994 F250, R170, Metro 6/ sold :( , Witte CD-12 ..... What else can I run on WVO?

Doug

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 01:39:01 AM »
Don't try and change the engine, change your habbits.

Maybe some propane would help with the carbon.
Maybe some Marvellle's washed through the warm cylinder after a run with the decompressor on would help soften and loosen carbon for the next run
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2010, 03:08:01 PM »
Doug is on to something here.
You might consider a water drip into the intake when the engine is under load. Just a little, the engine won't be damaged, but the water will clean the carbon off the piston crown.
I we used water injection to tame spark knock on my old 1950 Mercury with a flathead V8 and oversized carb.
Propane injection sounds like a good idea, but I haven't tried it yet. I do have most of the stuff together tho-. Still, it is flammable and could be dangerous if your not careful.
Marvel Mystery Oil has lots of uses, and freeing stuck exhaust valves on diesel engines is one of them, so I second Dougs suggestion here as well.
My engine is IDI, but I wish I'd gotten a GM-90 DI to play with when they were available, preferably the 'minilister'.
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Doug

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2010, 02:16:35 PM »
Propane injection is easy just hook up a line and when at full power crack the valve and let it have as much gas as runs well ( might be as high as 30 or 40 percent of fuel )

Not tried this but Methanol realy cleans.....
Maybe a mix of of 50:50 water and methanol to wash through and remove carbon on a fast drip like ship chief says.

To put the cleaning power of methanol into into perspective one of my engines ( not Lister ) is methanol motor I built for racing. burns the stuff like shit through a goose and no deposits at all int he combustiopn chamber, plugs look like new. Down side very cool burning and produces a lot of water oil look slike milk after a few runs
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

bschwartz

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2010, 02:20:30 PM »
Doug, just cause an engine runs super clean on methanol, doesn't mean it will clean junk that is already there.

I'  not saying it won't clean, and maybe really well, just that one doesn't mean the other.
-Brett

1982 300SD, 1995 Suburban 6.5, 1994 F250, R170, Metro 6/ sold :( , Witte CD-12 ..... What else can I run on WVO?

Doug

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2010, 05:22:36 AM »
Well I don't know to be honest what effects this has on diesel

But if I swap my gas carb for my meth carb and then remove the head after a few runs it looks like its been cleaned.
Based on the amopunt of water the oil picks up stuff is happening in there I don;t fully understand.....
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Spark_Chaser

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 12:59:18 AM »
Ray Z,

I posted a similar question back a few years ago.  Link Included.

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=c4b4a5d6a1f870cb93e68ec7eb266908&topic=3407.0

Looks like you got similar responses.
I have continued doing research from time to time, still need to verify the cylinder stud lengths and spacing.

Converting from DI to IDI (CS type) will require installing a complete CS type cylinder head (valves, rockers, injector, and possibly push rods) and a flat top piston.  A different cylinder assembly might be needed also.  Note Central Maine Diesel has a large supply of new spare parts.  A complete CS cylinder head and injector can be sourced from them.

Piston issues:
The generic CS pistons are cast iron and most DI types are Aluminum alloy.
Piston to Cylinder clearances differ with both materials as aluminum expands more.  Substituting an iron piston in place of aluminum may end up too loose a fit.  Then there is engine balancing issues due to different piston weights.

Someone sent you a link to Diesel-Electric's web page where they list an 8/1 aluminum piston.  If it is a flat top CS type, both of the above issues are addressed.

Cost:
Piston is aprox $100 not counting rings.
Complete head with rockers etc aprox $250.

Add shipping, a gasket set,  plus extras will easily exceed $400 US. 

Most folks paid $450 to $800 for the complete engine back a few years ago.

Alternately Central Maine sells a $499 single cyll rebuild kit (need to add decompression valve) that has everything needed and more.  However balancing the engine may be required.

Thats all I have so far.
My forum listed e-mail is good and I do check the forum regularly.

Spark Chaser
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38ac

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 03:07:02 AM »
I think the flat top aluminum 8/1 pistons are available here
http://www.diesel-electric.us/csparts.htm

Yup, Gary's latest crop of clones is very close to the original 8/1 Listers in every respect. IDI, aluminum piston, bushing mains, no changeover valve etc. I would expect that he has spares for them but have not had the need to ask for any myself.
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dieselgman

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Re: Convert Direct Injection to Indirect Injection
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 03:22:22 AM »
We have also used steam to clean out crudded up diesels... the trick is always getting them hot enough to do the job without contaminating the lube oil with water past the rings. So get your engine hot - full load, then just mist the water into the intake and it will take away cylinder glazing and other combustion remnants from the combustion chamber. Be certain to monitor engine oil while doing this and stop immediately if you see any signs of water in the oil.

We have interchanged the iron and aluminum pistons without any problem. The iron piston is not designed for much higher than 650 rpm as I understand it so should only be used on a 6/1. We also stock the standard idi style Lister heads with 7 studs if you want to swap out of the di style.

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