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Author Topic: Head Gasket Solutions---  (Read 9261 times)

hotater

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Head Gasket Solutions---
« on: May 13, 2006, 05:16:55 PM »
I've had four blown head gaskets in a year and 5100 Kwhs that I've attributed to ether use this winter, but then I notice the failures were all at 1200 hours plus or minus a hundred.  I  *think* the gaskets have some weaknesses and maybe there're  solutions to them.

One thing being tried now is "gasket shellac" thinned and painted on the fiber middle.

I  *like* the idea of cutting O ring grooves in everything I can. The Listeroids don't give us that simple choice.  It IS possible to write a program to circle the gallies in an irregular fashion of the proper circumference to take a standard O ring, but I don't have the capability to do it in my shop.

If the cooling gallies were O ringed to seal them what is needed to seal the head to the cylinder?  Can a simple ring 'washer' gasket of copper be located on the raised cylinder liner and the head lowered and torqued in place?  They should be a standard item in big steam line connectors.

One thing about a head gasket going out in a Listeroid...it gives you notice of it's failure but will give you a hundred hours of  cranking hard and running badly to figure it out!!     :o

7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

dkwflight

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2006, 05:40:14 PM »
Hi these guys were mentioned in one of the posts.

http://www.cometic.com/

I was wondering if anyone had tried them and what were the costs?
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

kpgv

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2006, 06:37:14 PM »
I looked really hard at the head gasket that came out of my engine, and I just don't see any way to get the "O ring around the water passages plan" to work.
There are at least three of the holes where there isn't enough meat on "both sides" to clamp the O ring material because of the varying sizes and shapes and locations of the passages in the block and head. This problem shows up near the O.D of the sleeve.
The sleeveless engines might not have this problem, and even the 4.5" bore ones too, but it is a problem on my 120mm bore unit.
I also measured the new copper gasket I have, and found that the copper on the side that gets rolled for the fire ring is .008" thick, but the copper on the other side is only .004" thick...Anyone else out there think that the fact that copper is ~$4.00 /lb has caused the manufacturers to skimp some here?
Maybe this is another case of "execution" being the problem, and not "design".
If the "permeability" of the core can be solved, then maybe it's just a matter of getting them made with adequate copper or stainless or ?  material (thicker) for the fire ring?

Kevin

DirtbikePilot

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2006, 07:44:00 AM »
Just call Eric at RMPS. He can have real head gaskets made that are just like the head gaskets being used in every other application. They don't fail. They are custom made, and not as cheap as the originals, but not really expensive either.

Jack- why try to reinvent the wheel? Just get a real head gasket.
Currently no listeroids, sad........ very sad.....
Just some other antique engines ranging from 40 pounds to 33,000 pounds each.

hotater

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2006, 02:16:41 PM »
DBP---

Why not use a 'real' head gasket??
 Because I don't have one and I don't have grid power to take up the slack when an engine is down.  It cost a gallon of gas to get into cell phone range and locally (within a hundred miles) I'm lucky to find Permatex, much less a Listeroid gasket.  To special order a gasket would be nearly as expensive as buying a new head by the time all the travel and aggravation were tallied up.
  I'll wait until somebody has a batch made then pay the tarrif to buy a couple.

UNTIL then, the shellac treatment is doing great.   ;)

I usually torque everything down, run it for a couple hours then re-torque them cold before the next re-start.  With the shellac sealer there wasn't any slack in any head nut but the small one on the valve rocker block and it was half of normal.  I suspect the absorption of coolant by the fiber liner makes the OEM gaskets soft.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Firebrick

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2006, 02:49:52 PM »
Hotatater,

Interesting they fail at 1200 hours.  We could live with the stock gasket buy shellacing them or using floor wax and just plan on say 1000 hour replacement.  Keep 10 on hand (10000 hours would keep most of us set for a lifetime (what does one cost exactly).  If one burns WVO or WMO in their engine the gasket change could be performed when cleaning up the carbon.  If not it would be a good interval to check things out.  Its not like it takes a long time to pull the head anyway.  I think machining a firering groove into the top of the liner would be fairly simple but the orings on the coolant passages in my opinion would be a waste of time and a PIA.  I am ap to agree with hotater on just using the stock ones and sealing them in some fashion.  I dont really care to reuse gaskets anyhow as even the best loose some of their properties when crushed the first time. 

BruceM

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2006, 03:48:10 PM »
Hotater:  I just finished a project which allows cell phone use via fiber optic cable from the small valley where my homesite is located.  I now know more about options for cell phones from remote sites than I ever wanted to.  External antennas mounted on a tall pole can turn many sites from zero reception to a 6 bar situation, a good yagi type can be had for $40 or less on ebay.  A docking station remotely mounted on a nearby hill with a twisted pair run 1000 feet or so to your homesite is also a way to solve a no signal problem for a valley.  I also have some surplus equipment left over from my project- a Verizon cell phone and docking station.

I'd be glad to be of assistance- your insights here have been invaluable to me.  My email address is not blocked.

Bruce M
Snowflake, AZ
Metro 6/1


hotater

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2006, 05:35:23 PM »
Bruce---

MUCH obliged!!

This property has some unique problems.  The first is that the cell site can't be seen from the closest canyon rims and short of a helicopter and contractors to pour foundations and set tower sections a yagi doesn't work.  I'm in the process of surveying the sites now, but I think the first tower site would take 83 feet to clear the next ridge and the closest ground level relay site is 1.3 miles north of here and 26.8 miles from the only workable cell tower....and it's in another state!

I'll be in touch!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

BruceM

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Remote site cell access
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2006, 08:06:55 PM »
Jack-
If there's a cell provider on  800MHz, you don't need line of sight. Some over the horizon/hill  is fine. Your situation does sound interesting.  I'm about 25 miles from several towers, none with line of site.  I look forward to hearing from you.
Bruce M
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 08:11:28 PM by BruceM »

DirtbikePilot

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2006, 10:37:18 PM »
Jack, you don't really have to do much to get the gasket I'm talking about. If you send an e-mail to Eric, I think he will get you one made. I'm going to have him get me one and he's probably going to get about ten more made to have some on hand. As long as your current one holds out though, I wouldn't bother changing it. You may have found something just as good. I guess it would be good to have one of Eric's on hand in case yours does fail though.
Currently no listeroids, sad........ very sad.....
Just some other antique engines ranging from 40 pounds to 33,000 pounds each.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2006, 11:16:09 PM »
FLEXITALLIC  and NO-BLOW
Are the names that come to mind for fire rings. They are spiral wound chevron shaped spring steel, stainless I think. They have an asbestos like material between the steel. When the gasket is clamped, the edges of the chevron shaped material is pushed narrower, and compress the fiberous material.
They are used in aircraft piston engine exhaust pipes to the head, and used in high pressure steam lines like in power plants and ships. High pressure steam line gaskets have an additional guard ring aound the spiral part.
WARNING; SEA STORY; THIS AIN'T NO SHIT!
Having stood under a steam flange gasket of the traditional head gasket type when it blew out on a steam ship, I can safely assure you that a flexitallic type is much better! And that was a mere 450 PSI, 500 degree F steam line of about 5000 horsepower. (yes, Guy, I warmed up the line correctly and all that)
I had some custom made for the exhaust uptakes on Detroit Diesel 149s, they don't blow out. They conform to an irregular surface and temperature variations, and vibration better than anything else I have experience with. Increases in pressure tighten the seal because of the orientation of the chevron edges towards the pressure. Perhaps they are offered thin enough to conform to our head / deck clearance spec?
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

GuyFawkes

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2006, 12:26:52 AM »
F
WARNING; SEA STORY; THIS AIN'T NO SHIT!
Having stood under a steam flange gasket of the traditional head gasket type when it blew out on a steam ship, I can safely assure you that a flexitallic type is much better! And that was a mere 450 PSI, 500 degree F steam line of about 5000 horsepower. (yes, Guy, I warmed up the line correctly and all that)

Q What steps do you take when the main steam line blows?

A Fucking big ones, up the ER ladder.

 :-X
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2006, 01:41:32 AM »
To say the least.
Your brain screams (because it's as loud as an explosion, but keeps on roaring) DON'T BREATHE!!
becuase if you inhale any superheated steam you will cook your lungs and die. Yet you take three quick breaths anyway, becuase that's how we're wired for 'fight or flight'.
Fortunatly a blown flange gasket is a big fan shaped plume, which quickly cools a short distance from the rupture. One of my buds from the engineering school was standing near the main unit on a T2 tanker when it lost excitation. (Turbine electric drive) the governor didn't react fast enough, and the turbine burst (stellite blades thru the cast steel housing) and ripped the main steam line off the nozzle block. That's a straight blast of full boiler pressure steam at full superheat! He was below in the lower engineroom, and found a way out, but was very respectful of steam after that. In fact, it was a while before he could go out again.
Many of us worked the old WWII ships in the 70's before we got the seniorty to work the larger better paying ships....that were alot safer too.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

Dail R H

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2006, 01:47:53 AM »
   Steam is wonderful stuff ,till it gets loose ;D ;D ;D

Halfnuts

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Re: Head Gasket Solutions---
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2006, 03:17:27 AM »
Permit me to add that while qualifying an autoclave (fancy pressure cooker) at work, I placed a liter beaker filled with water in the autoclave with thermocouples all around the inside of the chamber as well as one in the water.  Monitored the temperature distribution while the chamber was heating.  To my great surprise, after perhaps 5 minutes, the autoclave came up to temperature and pressure, and so did the water in the beaker.  The water lagged behind the steam by only a few minutes to 121 deg. C @ 15 psig.  The thermal conductivity of steam is about as good as that of hot water.  So getting burned by steam is like having boiling water poured over you, except at pressures over 1 atm. the steam superheats.  I now have much more respect for steam's ability to burn! 

Halfnuts